34 thoughts on “I Report, You Decide

  1. Ahem. And on a slightly less squicked out note, you have my definite vote for “an imposition.” If carrying something around inside your body, protecting it, letting it terraform your body and hijack your bloodstream, having your entire future earnings profile (and subsequent legal freedoms, responsibilities, and social status) impacted by it, and eventually shoving it out of an orifice that’s usually quite a bit smaller than it is doesn’t count as an imposition, I’m not entirely sure what does.

  2. (And, of course, the horrific C-section. But usually, even though 1/3 of births are by C-section, the vagina is used for, er, illustration in such an argument.)

  3. Forced childbirth? The only way that would be remotely possible is in the case of rape. Once again the narcissistic, whatever feels good as long as I bear no responsibility crowd refuse to admit that the only choice was made when the choice to have sex without precautions was made.

  4. the narcissistic, whatever feels good as long as I bear no responsibility crowd

    You mean men, who will never have to give birth, trivializing and over-simplifying pregnancy as a failure to keep one’s legs shut?

  5. Sam, perhaps in your world, there is only one person involved in the sex act (your misunderstanding of the finer points of contraception being one indication). When your tube sock gets knocked up, that will be between you and the sock and perhaps the rest of the sock drawer. But as you are neither my partner nor my doctor, I don’t really give a rat’s ass what you think about what I do with my pregnancy or whether you think my decision meets your expectations of responsibility. You take care of your worries and I’ll take care of mine. I would think that a fine black-and-white individualist like yourself could get behind that and learn to stay out of the collective bidness of all those women you’re not fucking.

  6. I am not trivializing and over-simplifying pregnancy when I point out that with the pleasures of sex come some responsibilities for the man and the woman. I would also like to point out that killing babies for pleasure without responsibility is pretty disgusting.

    I would also like to know why my wife and I felt such a loss when we lost the fourth of our six children early in the pregnancy if the unborn baby isn’t a child.

  7. Oh, Mag, I should say that the baby is not dead. In further pictures in that series, he’s screaming and wiggling and appears to be just fine.

    As for birthstories not allowing hotlinks, apparently they are unaware of how the internet works, but one should go check them out anyway for some pictures of what happens to a woman when a baby comes through her.

    So, Sam, I’m confused. Is child birth not an imposition or is it a deserved imposition because, gosh darn it, we chose to have sex and what’s happening in those pictures is the proper punishment for sex?

    Is that what you’re saying? That, if a woman wants to have sex, she should be prepared to be torn open nine months later?

    Do you realize what that sounds like from where I’m sitting? That you think women’s pleasure should be punished with pain and that it’s fine for the State to inflict that pain on us.

    And you get, right, that babies are not magic, that having a baby the State compelled you to have is not going to turn most women into great mothers? Being forced to support a kid isn’t going to turn an unwilling man into a good father.

    So, what happens to all those kids you “saved” when you’re on to punishing the next slut and now now it’s just the kid, its mom, and perhaps whatever man you coerced into marrying her?

    How can you claim to be pro-life when all your advocacy is done before the baby gets out of the womb? You’re not over there at Conservative Common Man arguing for universal health care or more funding for public schools or other things that can be a safety net for kids.

    You are just anti-abortion. To call you pro-life is awfully generous. I think I’m going to stop conceding that.

  8. Samantha Y., I may have to marry you.

    Sam P., you’re not among the “it’s not a human life” crowd here. Of course it’s a huiman life. Of course people grieve the loss of a wanted pregnancy. People grieve after abortions. You had hopes and dreams and ideas and plans about what that baby would be like and when it didn’t happen, of course you were crushed. Who wouldn’t be?

    Now, here’s my question for you: how would you have felt if the police had arrested your wife after the loss of that pregnancy on suspicion of manslaughter? If they insisted that she go to the hospital, not for her own well-being, but so that they could collect evidence against her?

    It is not illegal to terminate a pregnancy before the third trimester in this country (yet) and yet we’ve already seen one news story where the police tried to investigate an obvious miscarriage.

    But, if the world you want comes to pass–if terminating a pregnancy becomes a crime on par with murder, all pregnancies that end in results other than a live birth will have to be investigated to make sure that the woman doesn’t have some criminal culpability.

    Is that okay with you?

  9. I’d settle for all pregnancies that end in abortion mills being a crime.

    You say “of course its a human life.” So what crime has the unborn child committed? If none, it is an innocent human life. You suggest that it is alright to take innocent human life because the parents might be up to the task of being good parents? What other possibilities would justify taking innocent human life in your opinion? Why the death penalty for the child?

    I do not view childbirth as an imposition or as a punishment. Some activities come with some responsibilities. Sex comes with responsibilities. If the taxpayers collectively made the choice for a man and woman to have sex I would agree that the taxpayers should be responsible for funding your Hillary Care or whatever socialized medical plan you refer to.

    I hope you are not under the impression that I think men are exempt from responsibility. If a man and a woman create life, they are both responsible for that life.

    Also, I am not aware of any state that compells its citizens to have sex.

  10. Bridgett,

    What are those finer points of contraception that I am missing? On second thought, please don’t answer that I don’t really want to read that you view taking innocent human life as a form of contraception.

    I suppose my wife has been misguided into her vigorous anti-abortion opinions. The liberal college she graduated from must have failed her. (Can you imagine an educated woman that opposes abortion?)

    Nice language by the way, have you ever considered writing for Huffington Post?

  11. Why the hell are you guys even engaging this moron? Good Lord, did Free Republic ban him or something?

    Hillary care? That should have done it for ya.

  12. I do not view childbirth as an imposition or as a punishment.

    I tend to be the token anti-abortion one around here.

    So please take that into consideration when I make this comment…

    I DO view childbirth as an imposition in the most clinical sense of the word.

    Granted, I’ve never had children. But I’ll tell you something…even I, desiring a baby as much as I have for the last 14 years, breathed a sigh of relief when my period showed up 5 days late a week ago.

    Because right now, as much as I want a baby and would love a baby the simple fact of the matter is that I can’t see giving my body over to those vast changes right now.

    A pregnancy often seems academic to those outside of the situation until the baby trots along a few months later. But for a woman facing the need to sleep 20 hours a day for 3 months, the having to keep a trashcan by her desk to vomit into, to having to go to 4 different doctors to have her various medications adjusted, to having to make arrangements with her clients, to having to purchase a whole new wardrobe, to having to adjust to changes in intimacy with her partner…

    It IS an imposition of the highest order.

  13. When I say that I don’t view childbirth as an imposition I am viewing the word “imposition” as something being imposed on someone by someone else. Obviously I haven’t experienced what a woman experiences, but I have been witness to it a few times.

    Ms. Coble, would you have an abortion to eliminate this imposition?

    Thank you,
    The Free Republic Banned Moron

  14. Ah. I think it doesn’t like the bold tag.

    Anyway, to repeat myself…

    I neither called you that nor agree with that.

    However, I thought I made it clear that I was the anti-abortion person around here and would in no way consider abortion an option for myself under any circumstances.

    When you say that childbirth is not an impostion, I think there’s some circular logic there. The very thing that is being discussed here is the fact that were abortion to again be made illegal, childbirth would indeed become an imposition in that sense of the word.

  15. Aw man, those pictures really should’ve had some kind of warning on them … I feel ill :(

    (And Magz it’s okay, I thought the baby was dead too. Glad he’s not!)

  16. > So what crime has the unborn child committed? If none, it is an innocent human life.

    So what crime did a fetus commit, if it is the product of a rape? Do you consider the fetus to be the rapist, and rape to be so terrible that a first-time offender (who is a juvenile, by the way), should get the death penalty?

    Or maybe you don’t really believe your own bullshit about a fetus being a person. If a fetus is a person, then abortion is murder. There is no room for a rape or incest exemption. Or is it okay to kill a 2 year old child if he/she is the product of a rape? Why not?

  17. Aren’t you just the clever one Kat! Great zinger! But I think even at your most disingenuous you can see that Mr. Pierce has no interest in doing anything more than putting his self righteousness on display. It’s the same bottom line, reached more quickly perhaps this time, but he has no respect or feelings for the woman, except as a vessel to deliver another precious Christian baby. Nothing to learn here.

  18. Ms. Coble,

    I thought Mr. Mack’s first response was funny, which is why I signed my last reply “The Free Republic Banned Moron.” I was wondering if your recent lateness had changed your anti-abortion opinion. You cleared that up, but I am wondering if you believe it is alright for someone else to choose abortion?

    Indifferent,

    I hope you didn’t gather from anything I said that I support an exception for rape, incest, or anything else. I do not believe in killing the innocent child no matter how he or she was conceived. As for the death penalty for the person that commits a rape, isn’t it odd that so many people support killing the baby that might result and sparing the rapist? The priorities behind that thinking are disturbing. (Honestly, I could not support the death penalty for a juvenile, depending on the age and the crime.)

    Mr. Mack,

    Even when I was in my late teens and early twenties and did not believe in God, I still knew right from wrong. I would have never supported the killing of an innocent child. Of course to accept that fact would be to lessen your Christian fanatic argument against the pro-life position.

  19. Monseignor Bossybits is really on a roll here. I guess I didn’t state clearly enough that I don’t give a rat’s ass what he thinks (if he thinks) on the subject of anyone’s fertility choices but his own. I’m with Mack. There really isn’t anything to learn here except that Sam likes to pontificate. That’s why I suggested that he stuff it in a sock…er, stuff a sock in it.

  20. see, sam, the problem isn’t necessarily your religion or lack thereof. the problem is you keep conflating a whole big bunch of different ideas, using the same words to describe them all, yet flowing from one to another of the underlying notions sometimes within a single sentence.

    “human life” isn’t saying much of any use. when somebody draws a blood sample from me, that vial is full of human life — my red blood cells, each individually alive, each human. since they haven’t committed any crime, they even count as innocent human life. but i’m already conflating biology with law, and it’s already starting to make my words confused.

    similarly, you conflate “fetus” with “baby”. the two are not the same. you want to grant personhood to fetuses, but i don’t see you grappling with the notion of just what personhood is or what it takes to hold it. you need to, because that question is not simple to answer.

    there’s a legitimate, difficult, and ultimately unresolvable ethical debate around abortion. this is reflected in the legal history of abortion, culminating (for now) in the obvious compromise that is Roe v. Wade. that decision didn’t come out of nowhere, and the compromise it represents was not pointless, useless or disconnected from reality. it’s actually a legal decision unusually well grounded in the philosophy behind the case, i would say. you don’t get to just ignore all of that thinking, debating and compromising as if it never happened; that would be ahistorical.

  21. >only choice was made when the choice to have sex without precautions was made.

    What about pregnancies that occur in spite of precautions being taken? The condom was worn, the pill was taken, and chicky STILL got pregnant. What choice did she make?

  22. “Chicky” made a choice to have sex. Hopefully she did not make this choice believing that birth control pills and condoms were 100% effective.

    Now that she got pregnant, is it acceptable to kill her chilld?

    Also if you want to view a fetus as a group of cells equate that group of cells to individual cells such as blood cells, why not view yourself in that manner? What human rights could we possibly have, being cell groups?

  23. sam’s being deliberately obtuse, now. if he were actually thinking about the issues, he could not honestly be using such hyperbole, nor would he resort to such a clear non sequitur.

    my point was never to compare a fetus to a red blood cell, it was to point out that sam was abusing language — and committing an appeal to emotion fallacy, as well — in talking about “innocent human life” when he really meant to appeal to the personhood of a fetus (without explaining, first, why fetuses should have personhood to begin with).

    he’s still resorting to appeals to emotion. a woman does not have “a child” the instant she gets pregnant. pretending that that’s the case is, rather, begging the question on sam’s behalf.

    nor does he seem to well understand human nature. demanding that somebody who merely wishes to control their own fertility give up having sex entirely is not reasonable; the human libido simply doesn’t work that way. asking people to live as if it did is oppressive, patronizing and unproductive — it’s not going to happen, so we might as well find a plan and a set of recommendations that will work in the real world.

  24. Well, it works, if by “works” you mean “results in lots of unwanted kids abandoned on the streets or simply left in the hospital after birth.” I’m thinking of Çeausescu’s Romania here.

  25. I am struggling to find evidence that I am a person, was it at my birth when the “person switch” was flipped? Perhaps I should ask the vessel for bearing my children when I became a person. No, she would not be able to answer me intelligently as she is incapable of thought as she must be to have been so oppressed by me and coerced into six pregnancies. The fact that she did not abort any of my children is further proof of her oppression.

    I guess if it feels good, you should do it. If it hurts or kills someone that hasn’t had the switch flipped, no biggie. The important thing is that you get to have sex without responsibility, you noble being, you.

  26. Sam, no one is talking about your wife. No one thinks that you’re oppressing your wife or that you’re coercing her into having children against her will. I think it’s weird that you keep bringing her up like this conversation is somehow a referendum on your wife. Your wife met a guy, fell in love, had some kids with him. You are that him. So what?

  27. Most of the kids abandoned in hospitals in Romania were born to married couples. They just happened to be married couples who resented forced birth policies.

  28. Sam,

    Here’s my take on things for what little it’s worth.

    I’m very glad that your wife found a loving partner and a stable marriage wherein she could birth and rear children in an optimum environment.

    I wish that every person could have strong emotional support and adequate financial resources to face the life-changing events of childbirth.

    I’m smart enough to know that life just doesn’t work that way, though. A lot of people are dealt bad hands, or they make bad choices. Yes, some women have sex with the wrong guy. Some women get pregnant after making bad birth control decisions. There are enough sad stories out there to fill a billion books.

    Yes, I believe abortion is killing. I believe it is the taking of a human life.

    I would rather not see that happen, but I understand that sometimes some women believe that is the best option open to them. Should it be their choice? Well, actually, I think it probably should be. Because the fact of the matter is that this is a unique situation. As much as people try to analogise with goldfish and hair and fingernails and whathaveyou, we’ve got an unparalleled situation.

    Abortion has been around since the dawn of time. As long as women have been getting pregnant, women have been having abortions.

    Personally I think abortion should be legal. Because as much as I hate the idea of killing one person, I think making abortion illegal would mean that we’d effectively be killing TWO people–the woman and the unborn child.

    And, frankly, I don’t think God (I’m a Christian, in case you weren’t aware) is best served by His people sitting around and clucking their tongues at the wrongs of others.

    I think God has asked us to do to the least of these. And women facing hard choices and unwanted pregnancies ARE among those who deserve our servanthood. How is the constant discussion of the WRONGNESS of their lifestyles compatible with the Grace of the Saviour? I don’t happen to think that it is.

  29. *Cheers & Applause!* *Cheers & Applause!*

    Kat, that is the most compassionate view on this topic that I believe I have ever read.

    Beautiful.

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