I know 8:26 is too early to call the Professor, but I want to be doing something completely different today. I don’t know what “completely different” looks like, exactly, but I know that, if the Professor’s not busy, she’ll be game for it.
I’m starting to wonder if the Clinton game plan, to just push ahead in spite of what all everyone says isn’t slowly working on me. I mean, in my understanding, there is no way for her to win the primary–that it is now mathematically impossible. And it is my understanding that, back when everyone agreed, everyone agreed that Florida and Michigan would lose their delegates if they moved their primaries up.
And yet, I have to tell you, I find her continued campaigning and her continued insistance that the Florida and Michigan votes should be counted oddly compelling. Not in the “Oh, god, I hope Clinton can squeek this out!” way, but in the “maybe there’s some validity to her claims and I’m just not reading or hearing from the people who can make me understand the argument.”
I don’t know.
What I really want to do is eat homemade guacamole.
But I have neither homemade guacamole nor the fixings for it nor the Missus/the Primary Wife’s (I think they’re both using the same recipe) recipe and so I’m kind of stuck. I wonder if it would be rude to call either of them before nine in the morning?
And I need to clean out my car.
But, maybe, by the time I clean out my car, I can kidnap the Professor and make her make me guacamole using a recipe which I will procure by posting my hopes for it here in hopes the the Missus reads it and sees this post like a Bat Signal… or, in this case, a Guac Signal.
The drawback to a real Guac Signal of course would be that it would look like a giant green blob, which would be oh so easily and oh so tragically confused for the Booger Signal. I can’t even begin to tell you how gross and traumatizing that mix-up would be. I leave it to your imaginations, dear readers.
Anyway, as you may have guessed, I’m dancing around the subject most dear to my heart at the moment. What they want for the house is too much. Not too, too much, but more than other houses in the area are going for per square foot. I want to pay what other houses in the area are going for, roughly. So, I’ve made them an offer that is just a little too little, hoping they’ll come back and say “What about this price right in the middle?”
So, that’s that. There’s not much more to say at the moment, other than, if you’ve ever been inclined to buy, say 8,000 Tiny Cat Pants t-shirts to hand out at your family reunion or your church picnic or just as a way to make sure your street gang is easily identifiable (I’m looking at you, Brown Pride! You’re BP; I’m BP. You wouldn’t even have to change your graffiti. Hell, British Petroleum, same with you. You wear my logo; I’ll wear yours.), now would be the time to do it.
Tiny Cat Pants 
Well, regardless of which politicians agreed to what, the DNC (or DLC? not sure.) really screwed up. It’s simply not fair in any way, shape or form to tell the Democratic voters of MI or FL that their vote doesn’t count. The powers that be screwed up royally and if the Democratic citizens of those states are completely disheartened and stay home the day of the general election, then who can blame them.
I can. If you are a member of a political Party, you have to accept the fact that sometimes, the Party will make mistakes, comprised, as they are, of people. To hold the Party hostage because you’re favorite candidate isn’t nominated is foolish at best.
Where were these people when the GOP was systematically denying voting rights to those with certain last names? By staying home, they increase the chances that McCain wins, and they can look forward to the status quo.
The Party is far from perfect, but bear in mind that the State Republicans engineered this, not the DNC.
Oh, and B, your offer was more than fair. If they don’t accept, we start the process all over again. Time is on your side.
It’s simply not fair in any way, shape or form to tell the Democratic voters of MI or FL that their vote doesn’t count.
Nor is it fair in any way, shape or form to arbitrarily rewrite history. I have never agreed with the decision to exclude them but, since it happened, it’d be unfair to suddenly reverse it. The MI and FL primaries quite simply didn’t happen in any meaningful way.
Because had they been intended to count, the candidates would have done things differently. For one, Obama would have been on the ballot in MI. All of them would have spent more time/money campaigning there (which for the record means they’d have spent less time/money campaigning else where). Had FL and Mi been intended to count, it’s safe to say that their primary results would have been INCREDIBLY different than they are now. It’s arguable that every other state’s primary afterward would have also been different.
Even if they redo the primaries so the candidates have the chance to campaign, it wouldn’t be truly fair. What about the candidates who are no longer in the race. It’s (unlikely but) possible that Edwards may have massively taken both states had he campaigned for them) encouraging his supporters to come out in greater numbers in other states. Without a crystal ball, we just don’t know, and that’s why, simply deciding to simply count the primary results is decidedly unfair to everyone (including the FL and MI voters, who may have their vote “counted” but wouldn’t have it mean much under the circumstances).
All that said, I agree the that decision by the DNC to exclude them was a bad one, but what’s done is done. And if FL and MI voters decide to stay home in the general election, I would have some understanding for them, but I’d also certainly blame them. If you don’t get to pick what you get for dinner, do you still eat? Unless you’re a child throwing a temper tantrum you do. And even the most disagreeable child will eventually eat rather than starve.
B, I forgot to tell you add salt to taste.
Not having his name on the MI ballot was the smartest thing Obama did. Otherwise, there could have been a chance to view the results as valid and just count them now. Now that chance is gone. Obama knew he wasn’t going to win those states anyway, so what better way to make sure they’re not counted then to “agree” with the party heads and accept their decision.
Well Played.
Mack, I think you win, for the first liberal to blame this cluster party on the Republicans.
Ex, “blame” isn’t the word. But engineer it they did, and i think it blew up in their faces.
As for Obama, what in the world makes you think he couldn’t have won Michigan? Was Clinton going to appeal to voters in Detroit?
Primaries/General = apples/oranges
It’s ugly. There’s no way to fix it. It’s the Democratic Party leaders’ fault.
I’m not talking about activists or “members” of a political Party (capital P). I’m just talking about regular people who are living their little lives, not necessarily politically active or even particularly aware. They certainly wouldn’t think of themselves as holding a Party “hostage” – they wouldn’t even be that calculated about it. They just wouldn’t bother to show up-no protest, they just wouldn’t care. Most of them don’t think that McCain is all that bad anyway, they just know that Bush has screwed up the country. So few people vote anyway because they “know” their vote doesn’t count. Thanks Dems, we just proved that they don’t.
So those that have the time and inclination to keep up with all the political goings on can turn their noses up at those that just want to work, live, watch their tv shows, etc. But those are the people you need to win and if the process is too complicated, which it is, they will stay home or possibly even be swept up by the other party if they play their cards right. Maybe it’s not smart, or fair or whatever, but it’s a reality.
And once again the Dems are Pugilists in a Street Fight.
Nooooo! Why was it not explained to me, clearly and in words of one syllablle, that The Missus was The Missus? I mean, that the person who made the remarkably delicious guacamole was The Missus? Because I had some seeds for her. But I figured she wasn’t there….
Heartbreak, look at the turn out! More people than ever are engaged. Complicated? You show up, you punch your ticket, you go home or back to work.
Those people you speak of that just want to work, live, and watch their TV shows sometimes vote Republican. Neither Party can claim them. But this is a PRIMARY vote. When their vote will actually count, this November, they will show up. The ones that don’t were just looking for an excuse to justify their sloth-like existence.
NM, that info should have come right after your briefing on how much pita to bring…
Yes. Yes it should have. [pout]
Let’s hope the moderates do show up for the Democrat. We should have creamed the Republicans last time – they can claim one of the worst Presidents ever – we ought to be able to cream them this time too except that it’s too close to call. Can’t take anything for granted.
We all vote our conscious and our issues. Each of us has different reasons for voting different ways. It may seem not complicated to you but again each one of us is different and should not be judged. For the first time in my life I am not sure how I am going to vote this November for a lot of “complicated” reason. I consider myself a liberal and have fought for many years on many liberal issues. I have been subjected to name calling and violence since I started protesting in 1964 for my political views. I have lost good friends because they were conservative and I was liberal. I never thought this would happen but I am now subjected to name calling from my own party. I have been called a “racist” because I do not support Obama. This election year is anything but simple and I refuse to vote for anyone until they’ve earned it.
And I and others have been saddled with the label “misogynist”. The complication Heartbreak alluded to was with the process, not the choices. In November, you can exercise your right to choose, and that includes not making a choice at all. But to “hold out” until you (not you specifically) get your way is holding the Party hostage. For years, GLBT voters have had to make a less than ideal choice, as the Party abandoned them election after election.
My opinion is that ANY Liberal that doesn’t see our Progressive agenda disappearing completely with a McCain administration simply isn’t paying attention.
What, for instance, would you have said to those that didn’t feel Bill Clinton “earned” his nomination? He was elected with the votes of those that did not support him in the Primary. Thats the way it works.
Well the primary process IS complicated. Because people did show up, punched their ticket and went to work – and for nothing – and the reasons their votes won’t count ARE complicated.
Floridians have every reason to believe their votes don’t matter now by either party – the Republicans steal their vote and the Democrats don’t count them. You can argue about Primary vs General, I’m just telling you how people feel. If FL and MI weren’t swing states it might not matter so much, but it’s a whole other complicated issue when we do need every single vote.
I know a few people in MA that won’t vote for Obama for different reasons – and they also realize that MA is going Democrat. Period. So maybe the party won’t be hurting from the loss of them this time. But we will feel it in the swing states. Just like we did when many liberal activists didn’t like Gore and decided to throw their votes to Nader. Whhyyyy, couldn’t they see that a Progressive agenda would disappear completely with a Bush admin?
I disagreed wholeheartedly with the Nader people, but my point is that those that won’t vote are not necessarily “sloth” any more than those that punch a protest vote. It’s just a protest of a different kind from a different set.
This is an aside from the FL/MI debate – you cannot alienate half of your party and then expect them to fall in line. We are party made of every kind of independent thinker – for that we can and should be proud – but we also pay a price when we piss eachother off.
The votes don’t count as individual entities anyway, Heartbreak. Popular vote means nothing. The Primary/General “argument” is the only applicable one right now. They have a chance to vote this November. As Dolphin said upthread, there is no way to determine how the Fl or Mi Primaries would have gone, or by what margins. The rules were not enforced after the fact. The time to sit out the vote was IN THE PRIMARY.
Yes, Nader is a perfect analogy…look what it hath wrought. 8 years of the thoroughly most corrupt, incompetant and mean-spirited adminsitration we have ever put into office.
Care for seconds?
Stand your ground on that offer. That house has been for sale for a while and houses aren’t selling well. They ought to be happy they’re getting an offer at all, what with their green toilet and all. :)
Care for seconds of what? Condescension? Sure, throw a little Arrogance in for good measure too, I want the full Jerk salad. ;-)
Your point seems to be too bad, so sad for MI and FL democrats. My only point is that it’s a mistake to alienate voters that went out in good faith and cast their ballot. It’s not their fault we’re in this mess, it’s a failing of the Democratic leadership. And it’s a giant mistake we can’t fix. So now what?
And I’ve seen it over and over and over again on MSNBC and Air America Radio, it’s a mistake to demonize a candidate of your own party and alienate half of your party. That brings out the protest vote.
The Nader vote didn’t matter in MA. It didn’t matter in CA. It mattered big time in FL. My point is that if as Democrats we don’t find a way to truly unite, we will lose another one. And I don’t think a too bad, so sad approach is a way to unite a party. Not every side can win, but we should be able to make the people feel as if they’ve been heard and that their viewpoints and votes matter.
Sorry Lesley – I’m a slow typer – I hope it’s obvious my post was to Mack. :-)
Yeah, Aunt B – stand your ground – It’s a buyer’s market!
What’s your solution heartbreaktown?
How would you count the voices of FL and MI while remaining fair to all the candidate (including ones no longer in the race)? Does it involve a time machine, because I see no other way? You CAN’T simply include the votes that were already cast in the state.
I’ve heard some discussion on just count as they were cast since at this point they will make no difference in the final tally anyways, but I disagree for one major reason. You think things are complicated now? Wait til we set the precedent that there are no rules in elections. Anything goes isn’t a good way to select our leaders.
I’m posting under The missus because i am at her house.
And, she makes a great point just now. She said to me, “I have never cast a vote in a primary that mattered.” As a life-long Tennessean, shes right.
Too bad, so sad? How is a compromise that at least attempts to allot a fair number of delegates to each candidate be construed as that? There were carefully crafted rules about this, and The party doesn’t have to recognise those States at all. I’m glad that they are working out an equitable agreement, because i don’t want to see so many voters marginalized…but, in the end, not voting in November is the most myopic, pointless, and selfish thing a committed Democrat could do.
If the shoe were on the other foot, you and I both know you’d have a similar perspective.
wait, you need a recipe for guacamole?
isn’t it : mash avocado, add lime juice, maybe salt & peper?
if you want, a little garlic?
I’m not a fan of adulterating avodadoey goodness with frills and furbelows. When I was germany, I saw them add MILK to it. shudder.
nm, I should have introduced myself sorry.
The guacamole we had at MackFest 08 was…
2 avocados
1/2 to 3/4 cup diced tomato
3 fresh jalapeños ( chopped w/seeds)
1/2 diced onion
lime juice maybe 2 teaspoons
cilantro-about tablespoon (I used dried, it was on hand)
Dash of garlic powder
salt to taste
I don’t think it can be fixed. They screwed up! It’s a cluster-f@#K of the highest order and a gigantic embarrassment for our party.
If you’re looking for a solution from a high school drop out who got her GED at the age of 37, you’ve come to the right place! But that in itself would prove the party’s in bad shape indeed. If I HAD to pick a solution that’s already been put out there, then I suppose the Lanny Davis approach is relatively reasonable given the disaster we have on our hands. But it will be dismissed as partisan.
I’m a diplomatic person by nature and I believe the higher the stakes the more important the rhetoric. And there’s bad blood between the Clinton and Obama camps largely because of bad rhetoric. What I would like to see is a more respectful tone for both sides.
Sorry nm, I’m sure I’m missing something…
Yes, I believe that by simply writing off MI & FL votes can be construed as a simply “too bad so sad” approach.
I think they were meeting today. Have they worked out an agreement yet? (I’ve been watching the Red Sox – currently on pause.)
I don’t think a committed Democrat sitting out an election in MA is myopic or selfish – maybe pointless because it won’t make a difference. But there are people out there that are not committed Democrats, not activists, and that may be sitting out because they don’t feel their voice is heard or their vote counts.
Since you suggested that if the shoe were on the other foot, I’d have a different perspective than the one I hold now. I respectfully disagree. I was an Edwards supporter last time and this time too. When he dropped out, I slimly settled on Clinton but didn’t have any bad feelings for or about Obama. And I have stated before that I will publicly, cheerfully vote for whomever the Democrats nominate. But watching the party in-fighting has been very painful indeed and I don’t think it had to be that way.
Mmmmmm, furbelows.
Hmm, I may be making guacamole in the next few days…
On Fl and MI, it seems to me to be thus:
The national Dem party said: “These are the rules on when you can have your primaries. If you break them, then your state may be subject to penalty, such as having your state’s vote not count towards the nomination, or only half counting, etc.”
The state Dem parties in FL and MI said, “Screw you and your rules, we’re going to do what we want to.”
The national party then said, “You run the risk of not having your constituents’ vote counting.”
State parties: “We don’t care.”
National party: “OK, we warned you.”
Actions have consequences. The state Democratic Party in FL and MI were the ones who placed their members in this predicament by not following the rules, and as Dolphin accurately pointed out in his first comment, it is impossible to go back and change what happened. If I were a FL or MI Dem, I’d be looking to sack some state party leaders over this.
Heartbreaktown, you did miss some really good guacamole. And The Missus missed some vegetable seeds. And Mack missed his chance to be a good host by introducing his guests property. The same way the and MI Democratic party missed its opportunity not to screw the voters who are its members. I don’t blame the FL party in the same way, since their primary date was set by the mostly Republican state legislature, but they did pass up the chance to come to an agreement with the DNC before the date about how to handle the situation. Sort of the way Mack missed the chance to have enough fried bread to go around. If you think about it, the entire Democratic debacle is Mack’s fault. If it weren’t for him, we would be marching on to manifest victory in November without a hitch or a stumble. Men just can’t organize anything…[sigh].
“If I were a FL or MI Dem, I’d be looking to sack some state party leaders over this.”
Yup.
To The Missus:
Thank you for the recipe! I will be trying it, for sure…that was absolutely wonderful!
P.S. I hope Mack forwarded you the link to the pics I took…otherwise, if not, please e-mail me at GingerSnapsTN at gmail dot com.
:)
I don’t technically have a dog in the fight for the Democratic Primary, so I have no opinion there.
As far as the house goes, I’m steadfastly wishing you all the best.
FWIW, I do have a good feeling about it.
The state Democratic Party in FL and MI were the ones who placed their members in this predicament by not following the rules
Not exactly true. As Mack noted, in Florida it was the Republican-led legislature that changed the primary date. If I were a FL Dem, I’d be looking to vote out some GOP legislatures. Of course, I’m sure they were already trying to do that anyhow.
Looks like they decided to seat the delegates but give them only a half-vote each.
What was the vote? Did FL Dems vote unanimously against this? Or did they vote in favor?
Did they call their superiors at national headquarters as soon as they could and say, “Hey, we had nothing to do with this, and we fought it as hard as we could. Work with us here.”
Trying to blame an intraparty rules dispute on the GOP… what a pleasant example of liberal blame shift.
Some FL Dems voted for it, some voted against it. All FL GOPs voted for it. Those who voted for it are to blame regardless of what letter comes after their name.
Ignoring simple indisputable facts that are a clear matter of record… what a pleasant example of the conservative tactic of simply ignoring facts that don’t say what you want them to.
Actually, the vote was near unanimous. And when threatened with punishment, the Fl Dem state party did something which is sure to lead to compromise and an atmosphere of understanding between state and national parties.
They sued. Because yeah, that won’t only piss off he national party more. Dumbasses. Only Democrats…
Meanwhile, on the GOP side, they reconciled with the national party long before Florida actually voted, and therefore Florida Republicans didn’t have the cloud of doubt over their heads like Florida Dems did.
In fact, if you remember, Florida was so important to the Republican race, that when Guiliani failed to do well in that state, he had to drop out.
So nice try on that snappy comeback, but since you didn’t really have the facts to back it up, it falls kinda flat.
So nice try on that snappy comeback, but since you didn’t really have the facts to back it up, it falls kinda flat.
Uh, google Florida HB 537. My facts are in order, thank you very much. Check out the voting record and then come back and tell me exactly which facts I had out of order. I repeat some Dems voted for it, and some Dems voted against it. Most Dems voiced opposition to the primary date move but ended up voting for the bill because among other things, the Republicans included on it a measure to ensure a paper trail, which the Dems have been after since the 2000 election!!!
So yes, the FL GOPs (who out number FL Dems 2 to 1 in the house) gave the FL Dems a choice between maintaining the integrity of the general election and risking primary problems and most Dems chose the former. Burn them at the stake already.
Btw, you’re illustrating a second “pleasant example” of conservative tactic. When you’re shown to be wrong, you simply declare that other person is wrong despite what the facts say and be done with it.
Lee, either you don’t know much about this or else you are very selective in what you’re presenting.
The Dems voted for primary rescheduling because it was rolled into omnimbus election-oriented legislation by the Republican-controlled Senate and a very effective Republican Speaker of the House. A carrying “no” vote (which they would not have gotten anyhow) would have eliminated the requirement of paper trail option in voting. Considering that Dems in Florida are rightly sensitive to their constituents’ demands for a paper trail since the electronic erasure of 18000 Dem votes is one reason that a Republican went to Congress in District 13 (not to mention that ugly presidential thingy a couple of years back), they had to take their chances. In short, they were politically outmanuevered, particularly by the Speaker of the House.
So yes, the GOP did have something to do with it. That’s politics. I’m not crying in my beer about it — that’s just how it’s done.
The lawsuit you cite, as I understand it, was dismissed as groundless even before the primary was held. The DNC has the right to determine who it seats to its nominating convention and to set its own rules.
About the way the process works… the only way off the ballot in Florida once you’ve thrown your name in the hat is to file paperwork swearing that you are no longer running for President. That’s why the candidates were stuck on the ballot whether they wanted to be further included in the specious primary or not. There was no option of withdrawing from the ballot, as Obama did in Michigan.
Finally, Giuliani ran a “big state” campaign, conserving meager resources to go for the states with the big electoral counts; had he played smallball or some version of the “stay in the game” plan that McCain followed, he would have still been a player after January 29th. He did not and was forced to drop out (can’t fumble away the big states and still get the kill if that’s your plan).
I find it hard to believe that anyone would have voted for Giuliani in small states, either.
/thread derailment
First Bridgett, I understand that the Dems got outmanuvered in the house because of their minority status, and helped to create the omnibus so they could get something they wanted out of it. But what I find truly amazing, and what I consider to be negating of the whole omnibus point anyway, is their extrememly confrontational attitude with the national party afterwards.
They could have been on the phone the entire time explaining the situation to the national party.
They could have been begging for funds or planning ahead of time for a separate primary or caucus. There were many states this past year where the GOP and Dems had their primaries on different days.
Hell, maybe the reason they have a 2-1 disadvantage to the GOP in the first place is because they are so damn freaking incompetent. They unnecessarily turned a minor mess into an out and out disaster in their state. If they are so inept working with people on their own side, imagine trying to deal with the opposing party.
They got confrontational, filing multiple lawsuits and playing hardball with their own national party.
And like I said earlier, the GOP managed to make their half of the primary not only pass a test of legitimacy, but to actually play a significant role in the elimination process of it’s candidates.
“I repeat some Dems voted for it, and some Dems voted against it.”
Dude, the vote in the House was 118 to 0, and in the Senate 37 to 2.
Two. Which I guess technically qualifies as “some.”
Epic win, Dolphin. Epic win.
Epic win, Dolphin. Epic win.
Well, let’s see, you’ve gone from “It was all the Dems fault, and any observation of Republican involvement is ‘liberal blame shift'” to “Ok, the Republicans pretty much engineered the whole thing, but the Dems didn’t handle themselves well afterward.”
Considering who I’m talking to, I’d count that as an epic win.
Oh, go close down All Tangled Up in Blue Again.
TUIB didn’t close because of me. In fact, it didn’t close at all, it’s still up there in fact just nobody posts there anymore. I put as much time an effort into TUIB as anybody (including designing the custom template). It’s not my fault all the contributors lost interest (and it’s utterly ludicrous to suggest otherwise).
As a former contributor to TUIB I must emphasise that dolphin had nothing more to do with waning interest in that blog than anyone else . By the time we established that we all love Van Morrison and have iPod playlists there seemed to be a redundant quality to the posts that cost us readers and ultimately writers.