Okay, Tennesee, it’s become apparent to me that y’all may need a little refresher course on what is racist.
Noticing that there are people in the world who are different than you–not racist.
Being uncomfortable with those differences, but assume that’s your problem to get over–not racist.
Seeing that people are different than you and assuming that you’re better than them–racist
Treating people who are different than you poorly because they’re different than you–racist.
Actively seeking to define how people that are different than you are worse than you and then seeking to cause them harm–REALLY REALLY RACIST.
That’s like the big no-no of racist behavior.
Do you remember this term? White supremacy? The belief that white people are different and better than all others and that “our” culture is unique and, though vibrant and strong, also very fragile, thus requiring us to all work in concert to protect the white race from the influence of other cultures? White supremacy is, by definition, racist, and when “protecting” the white race (I’m not even going to get into what a problematic term “white” is. Let’s just assume we all know it when we see it.) leaks over into seeking to cause people who are different than you harm, it is really, really racist.
Therefore, people, white nationalism is racist. It is built on a foundation of belief that white people must have a culture free from the influence of other cultures in order to protect and preserve white ways.
That seems to me to be very, very clear.
So, let’s talk about illegal immigration:
“Illegal immigrants use a bunch of resourses they don’t pay for.”–Not racist. True or untrue, it’s a point that can be debated among reasonable people.
“It’s not fair to grant amnesty to illegal immigrants when there are so many folks who took the time and the trouble to come here legally.”–Not racist.
“Letting people remain here undocumented only encourages employers to expoit them.”–Not racist.
Using “illegal immigrant” as a shorthand way of talking about Mexicans?–Racist
Calling them dirty, or vermin, or hordes, or such?–Racist
Saying that they’re ruining “our” culture?–Racist
Seeking to actively harm them?–RACIST
So, let’s talk about what Stacey Campfield and David Oatney were up to this weekend. Stacey?
I was the guest speaker today at the T-FIRE (Tennesseans For Immigration Reform and Education) information forum. T-FIRE is an anti illegal immigration group. Their was a really good crowd who was quite passionate about the issue. Dave Oatney was there and blogger Linda Noe who is a leader on the issue as well as in the group was also there. [obviously, insert your own ‘sic’s where needed]
I, of course, was curious to learn what kind of group T-FIRE is, and so I went to their website. Their website doesn’t scream ‘white supremacy,’ but it’s more than happy to whisper it. Right there on the front page is an approving link to a song in which we learn that the illegal immigration problem is specifically a problem because it means so many Mexicans are coming here, that those Mexicans are hordes (like the Mongol hordes of old, bent on conquering and destroying Western civilization), and they’re not like us because they have so many kids.
Heck, check out their advertisement. If that doesn’t link the illegal immigration problem specifically to Mexicans, you have your eyes shut.
But the website is kind of sparse and so evidence one way or another about whether this is an anti-immigration group or a white-supremacist group concerned about immigration is hard to gather. Luckily, they have friends.
They say you can tell a lot about a person by the friends they keep. Shall we check out T-FIRE’s friends?
There’s the Minutemen of Tennessee. They claim that they aren’t a hate group and that they refuse to be associated with hate groups–“We do not discriminate against nationalities, race, color or religions. We are not a hate group nor do we associate with any known or unknown groups.” One might ask why they’re only patroling the Mexican border, then, but in general, I’m going to take them at their word.
Why?
Because the other group T-FIRE links to is going to keep me busy all morning.
TNRIP, a group T-FIRE links to as “friends.” I quote from their pages.
–“All illegal aliens should be denied all public services except emergency medical care;” (Folks, they said all, not me. All public serices except for emergency medical care. No police, no fire department, only medical care.)
–“Children born in the U.S. of illegal immigrants should be denied automatic U.S. citizenship, non-emergency, publicly-funded health care and free, public education.” (Yes, let us destroy the Constitution in order to save whatever’s left once you destroy the Constitution.)
–“But woe to you if – or more likely, when – the rules change. White Americans may soon find themselves unable or unwilling to stand up to challenge the new political methods that will be the inevitable result of the ethnic metamorphosis now taking place in America. Unable to cope with the new rules of the game – violence, mob riots, intimidation through accusations of racism, demands for proportionality based on racial numbers, and all the other social and political weapons used by the have-nots to bludgeon treasure and power from the haves – Americans, like others before them, will no doubt cave in. They will compromise away their independence and ultimately their way of life. ” (from a “must read” article)
–“Yet Westerners do not admit that the same kind of savagery could come to America when enough immigrants of the right type assert themselves. The fact is, Americans are sitting ducks for Third World exploitation of the Western conscience of compassion.”
–“Storefront of another business catering to the enclave of illegals now inhabiting what was, only 4 years ago, a solidly middle-class American neighborhood.”
–“It’s not just restaurants, food and convenience stores that are now catering to the flood of illegals who REFUSE to learn our language, it’s every business that is willing to cater to their desire to establish areas more resembling Mexico that are seeking to make profits from them at the expense of the legal immigrants and citizens that have been forced out of what was once their home.”
–“THIS HAS GOT TO STOP before the United States of America is completely over-run with third-world illegal immigrants who have NO desire to assimilate into our culture and the U. S. is effectively brought down to the level of the countries these people have left!!!”
–“But huddling in high-density hovels should not be mistaken for loving relationships or psychologically healthy lifestyles.”
–“USA Today declared that Bantus are ‘not latter day cavemen’ and then built a convincing case that they are.”
–“The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that’s two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens.”
–“In 2002, HIV/AIDS was the third leading cause of death among Hispanic men aged 35 to 44 and the fourth leading cause of death among Hispanic women in the same age group. Most Hispanic men were exposed to HIV through sexual contact with other men.” (This one really cracked me up. OH NOES! MEXICANS HAVE TEH GAY! )
–“To continue granting amnesties to lawbreakers is only serving to undermine our national cohesiveness and balkanize our country right before our very eyes.”
I could go on, but you get the idea. Mexicans aren’t like us. They’re ruining America and bringing disease and gayness. They’re the front-end of a massive tidal wave of Third-world immigrants who are, at best, primitive, at worst, sneakily using our white benevolence against us in order to turn America into a Third-world country where they can kill us with impunity.
This, folks, is my problem. I can’t have a debate about immigration that advocates white supremacy and the need to protect white culture. I think that, to even engage white supremacists on their terms grants legitimacy to their goals.
And I think allowing white supremacist concerns to slip into the immigration debate is ridiculous. Why are respected Tennesseans granting validity to this nonsense?
Tiny Cat Pants 
ugh, this enraged me! I can’t even get started, I’m so pissed off. Speechless.
Damn right! (except for Scooter Libby) Amen! (or Ollie North) Make ’em pay! (or Richard Nixon) (or– oh, you get the point)
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Gawd, I hate racists.
You’re prejudiced and know your audience will share your prejudices.
None of the quotes are racist, and you fail to make a convincing case they are even objectionable. The opinions of those Americans are typical of viewpoints freely expressed by non-western peoples and politically implemented by most non-western governments.
While the Mexican government pressures the US to keep its southern border open – the southern border of Mexico is one of the most aggressively policed in the world, and that’s how Mexicans like it.
The non-western world is not as a result racist, they simply believe their nations and peoples have a right to value their own community and way of life and protect their territory.
You are entitled not to feel like that, but I rather think that you are opting out of the social contract and disqualifying yourself from any democratic right consonant with the polity you are rejecting.
Thats about the lamest justification for racism I’ve ever read. B didn’t even get into a discussion of immigration reform. She was obviously making the point that the “anti-immigration movement” has ties to and indeed supports a White Supremacist’s agenda. How many comments have i read that state mexicans are less hygenic, or more prone to crime, or less intelligent? Those are not racist statements?
You have no business talking about social contracts. You are clearly clueless.
And I think allowing white supremacist concerns to slip into the immigration debate is ridiculous.
*********************
Slip in? Come on now, how naive are we all supposed to be?
We all know it’s about the color of people’s skin. Their language. Their habits.
Some people gussy it up a bit more but that’s all it is — ugly old-fashioned us versus them. We got here first and therefore. . .
Nance
I rather think that you are opting out of the social contract and disqualifying yourself from any democratic right consonant with the polity you are rejecting
The whole point of this country’s system of government is that you can’t disqualify yourself from a ‘democratic right’. Unless you’re convicted of a crime. You could try to make a point that not voting disqualifies you from certain democratic rights, but that’s stupid and not really pertinent to this discussion.
What the hell is a social contract anyhow?
“Under U.S. Census Bureau definitions, Hispanic is not considered a race. Everyone is classified as both a member of one or more racial groups and also as either Hispanic or non-Hispanic. Therefore, Hispanic does not appear as a slice of the pie in the racial breakdown. In the charts, people who are Hispanic are counted as part of one of the racial groups, such as white or black.” Source: U.S. Census Bureau
I wasn’t aware “illegal alien” was among the list of races.
None of these groups are racist, or white supremacy groups, they are fighting for America’s soverignty, LANGUAGE, education, culture, health care, environment, safety, (especially from child rapists from Mexico!), vehicular manslaughter, overpopulation, rising taxes, and the list goes on of the ways illegals are destroying America.
Of course if your children’s or Grandchildren’s future means nothing to you…just call us racists because you have NO VALID ARGUEMENT.
Thats about the lamest justification for racism I’ve ever read.
But there wasn’t an attempt to justify racism, nor even a comment on its morality.
B didn’t even get into a discussion of immigration reform.
Precisely.
…supports a White Supremacist’s agenda..
If I thought the comments were ‘White Supremacist’ I’d agree that they are racist – but they aren’t W-S either.
The whole point of this country’s system of government is that you can’t disqualify yourself from a ‘democratic right’.
Nearly four million Americans are denied the vote because of their criminal record. I say few things are more criminal than giving away the collective goods of a nation that you are simultaneously opting out of by alliance with criminal aliens.
If that’s a little hard to understand, it’s morally equivalent to a husband moving his mistress into the family home and forcing his wife to share all her possessions with the tart.
Good post DinTN, but you might not get a good hearing from people who put quote marks around “our” in our culture, and ask ‘What the hell is a social contract anyhow?’
The ‘Hispanic’ category doesn’t exist in politics outside the USA (unless Canada has been infected), the category exists only to exploit White Americans.
Perhaps someone can justify the racially aggravated crimes detailed here.
…(unless Canada has been infected),…
hahahahahahaha!!!…you guys are trolls, right? I get the joke!
Oh. It’s not a joke, is it?
Next you’re going to tell us that the Nazi’s weren’t trying to get rid of the infectious Jews because they were racist…it was a noble cause of fighting for [Germany’s] sovereignty, LANGUAGE, education, culture, health care, environment, safety, (especially from child rapists from [Israel!]), vehicular manslaughter, overpopulation, rising taxes, and the list goes on of the ways [Jews] are destroying [Germany].
The similarities are mind boggling.
Today’s episode, “When Wingnut Trolls Collide,” has been brought to you by the Heritage Foundation, the American Enterprise Institute, and all the lickspittles who suck up and regurgitate their idiotic talking points.
First, let’s take a brief look at the things DinTN says the not-racist groups (snicker) are ‘fighting for’:
If anything threatens the sovereignty of the U.S.– which ostensibly runs according to the will of its people– it is international trade agreements (like NAFTA) which give unaccountable corporate interests impunity from our laws and veto power over our elected and appointed governing bodies. These same trade agreements put official blessings on the sort of rapacious, amoral business practices that exacerbate the drastic inequalities that lead to massive, economically spurred migration within and across borders. But never mind all that… LOOK! Filthy beaners!
Morons.
You’re kidding me, right? Right-wingers are now suddenly worried that Mexican ‘illegals’ and their ‘anchor babies’ are going to put too much strain on a system that these same right-wingers have been trying to sabotage for at least half a century?
Ditto above.
See a pattern developing here?
God damn those illegals! They’re stealing our playbook!
Hmmm… let’s look at the history of that practice…
In our next episode, watch as the wingnut trolls attempt to spin and change the subject…
Yeah! Good thing those ‘La Raza’ folks aren’t racist.
Church Secretary,
I doubt you are more hostile to the neocons than I am, but you are the only one posting about Libby or the AEI. It seems somehow off-topic to me.
Your link was interesting about the ‘history of that practice’. But if today’s government uses such a tactic to disenfranchise Black voters it would best be described as Asian-Supremacist though, as the US matches the
rest of the world in the three-way race-crime scale: Asians a lot less criminal than Whites and Whites a lot less criminal than Blacks.
This holds true regardless of majority/minority status and controlling for SES – even African states which disenfranchised criminals would seem to be targetting Blacks. So it seems unlikely that a government like yours which grants superior rights and opportunities to a made-up group like ‘Hispanics’ immediately they arrive in the country is seriously trying to maintain White-Supremacy. Equal rights with voluntary immigrants aren’t even on the table!
And my comment was only in response to the idea floated that one’s democratic rights could not be withdrawn in the US, and to offer the opinion that treasonous politics are about the most serious crime there is.
Ginger,
it isn’t the American who favours his own people and wants to keep his own property who needs to justify himself; in fact it is those who aggress on his nation and those who assist them with fantastical slurs who are the more nazi-like.
It need not be like that, and I know you do not wish it to be, so perhaps you could be a little more reasonable and allow that the American who values his national inheritance is perfectly entitled to defend it from the trespass of aliens?
If not, you and I will not find common ground, for you do not allow private property or defence against ethnocide. You cannot have one rule for minorities (or 3.Reich Jews) and another for majorities (or today’s Americans).
Glad thereafter, you crack me up. Look at you talking all “It’s not white supremacy. It’s not white supremacy.” when the very basis of your comments made here rest on the notion that people of European descent, who practice Christianity, who come from a culture that has the second oldest university in the hemisphere (a university considered to be one of the best in the world), and whose culture is still closely tied to Spain’s is not “Western.”
Well, dear god, if you can be descended from Europeans, practice Christianity, practice five hundred years of university education, have close ties to Europe, and still not be “Western,” what’s your critera for being “Western”?
I mean, please. You’re not dumb. I’m not dumb. We both know you mean “white” when you say “Western.” And the second you start talking about “Western,” using it to mean white, you’re being a white supremacist. You believe white people are better than brown people.
And you are racist. Look at how you equate “we Americans” with white people and how you equate letting brown people into the country with “ethnocide,” as if only white people are under this perceived threat by these illegal aliens.
I don’t see how you expect to reasonably participate in a conversation when you can’t even be honest with yourself about your postion. But, hell, it’s your dime. You’re welcome to try.
DinTN, bless your heart. Did you really just try to make the argument that you can’t possibly be racist because “Hispanic” isn’t a race? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. That’s rich.
Fine, you’re not technically racist. You can still technically be a white supremacist and, from your comment, I would guess that to be the case.
a while ago i stated on this blog that i didn’t feel like illegal immigrants should be granted citizenship. at this juncture, i feel the need to state two separate points for the record, to wit:
(1) i was then, and am now, referring only and specifically to citizenship. i’m not about to let the raving lunacy of some bunch of extremists sway me out of that opinion, but, nevertheless:
(2) the rest of this raving lunacy that’s being spouted against illegal immigrants of late? not me. nuh-uh. please don’t let anybody ever claim that my one, limited point about citizenship and naturalization alone was ever meant to have anything at all to do with that.
that is all, thanks for listening.
Aunt B.,
I do not equate ‘we Americans’ with white people; I do not consider ‘letting brown people into the country’ to be ethnocide; or think that ‘only white people’ suffer the effects of mass illegal-immigration, so your accusations of deliberate dishonesty and racism are groundless.
It’s just so much more prejudice – you are sure you know what I think so don’t deal with what I wrote, instead you argue against your straw-men.
Lose the heat Aunt B., and hear the other side. As I said to Ginger, even those who say ”this is our country not yours, AND we don’t like you either – get out!” are well within their rights. It is those arguing that Americans don’t have that right who are the aggressors and who need to justify their program.
“T-FIRE”???
Ha.
Gosh, I seem to remember a very similar movement that was represented by setting big wooden “t”‘s on fire.
Glad thereafter, I feel like I must, in order to be fair, point out to you that everyone can read what you wrote. So, when you say–
“If not, you and I will not find common ground, for you do not allow private property or defence against ethnocide.”
and then turn around and say–
“I do not consider ‘letting brown people into the country’ to be ethnocide”
people can see those two statements side by side. Perhaps you’d like to clarify, but it seems obvious to me that, in your reply to Ginger, you’re saying that there is some kind of pending ethnocide, which you recognize and Ginger doesn’t, for which Ginger would not allow decent people to defend themselves against.
Since we’re in a thread talking about white people’s supremacist responses to the immigration crisis, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to gather from that that you do in fact consider ‘letting brown people into the country’ to be ethnocide–since whether and how to let brown people into the country is the subject at hand and you’re the one who brought up ethnocide as being relevant to the subject at hand.
Also, clearly, you’re ridiculously and deliberately misunderstanding not only the history of the United States but my post. First, we live in a country where you can lead an army against your own country and still be well-respected in your own lifetime and afterwards (and even posthumously given your citizenship back), so claiming that my disagreements with those who bring white supremacist agendas into what is already a political nightmare and a humanitarian crisis is somehow “opting out of the social contract” is hilarious.
As a country, we’ve got our problems, but being so openly fascist is not one of them. Built into the very fabric of our nation is the right to public squabbling over important issues.
In fact, I’d argue that you have it exactly wrong. It’s those folks who aren’t well enough informed to have an opinion they’re willing to argue for who are violating their social contracts. So, to that end, it’s neither me nor the white supremacists who are using illegal immigration to strengthen their own public voice who are at fault here, but the folks who remain silent in the face of such an important issue.
but the folks who remain silent in the face of such an important issue.
Bingo. Amen.
And it’s not just this issue, but I am troubled by those that quietly go about their business while we move toward a fascist state. Women, Gays, the undocumented are under attack, and there seems to be a large number of people who wait until the momentum toward change doesn’t require their presence to push it forward.
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it isn’t the American who favours his own people and wants to keep his own property who needs to justify himself;
You’re right…there is no need to justify it, because there is NO justification for racism.
in fact it is those who aggress on his nation and those who assist them with fantastical slurs who are the more nazi-like.
Right. Those who aggress on his nation…let’s add sexist to racist to the list of your follies. For someone who is so bent up about the language that those who are trying to be compassionate toward an ethnic group who is obviously having a hard row to hoe these days, you should choose your words carefully as well.
It need not be like that, and I know you do not wish it to be, so perhaps you could be a little more reasonable and allow that the American who values his national inheritance is perfectly entitled to defend it from the trespass of aliens?
You’re right, it doesn’t and shouldn’t be that way. But it was you who, in this dialogue, used the term “infected” in referring to folks who are friends of mine, folks whose parents were undocumented and made an amazingly successful lives for themselves (much more successful contributors to their communities than I will probably ever be), people have enriched my life and blessed me beyond measure.
How dare you.
If not, you and I will not find common ground, for you do not allow private property or defence against ethnocide. You cannot have one rule for minorities (or 3.Reich Jews) and another for majorities (or today’s Americans).
You’re right. I could never find common ground with a person who could find it in their hearts to use the word “ethnocide” to make a point in this debate.
Again…how dare you.
Oh and by the way…being an owner of private property myself, I have yet to find an undocumented Mexican there trying to take it away from me.
Are they trying to take your property away? Anybody’s? Prove it.
Apologies for my grammatical errors. I am multi-tasking this morning and also angry enough to cry at what I am reading in this thread.
I’m sorry I have to repeat myself, but as I commented in an earlier post:
So let’s be honest here: when people talk about illegal immigrants, they aren’t bemoaning an influx of white, English speaking people. They aren’t even wasting breath on Swedish, or French, or German folk whose English is choppy at best but blend in on the street and at least “pass” for “American.” We don’t talk about putting up a fence along the Canadian border. We don’t talk about these things because we think of illegal immigrants as brown people who speak Spanish.
If we put all illegal immigrants in a line and told the average citizen to pick out the illegal immigrants, they’d look at the brown people first. That’s honesty. And it is racist.
As far as bringing the U.S. Census Bureau definition into this, let’s opt for a little transparency, shall we? Their breakdown goes like this:
White, Black or African American, American Indian and Alaska Native, Asian, Native Hawaiian and other Pacific Islander, Some other race, Two or more races, Hispanic or Latino (of any race)*
*The U.S. Census Bureau’s parenthetical, not mine.
So if we don’t consider Hispanic or Latino as something other than white, why does it need to be their at all? We don’t ask someone of Irish (of any race) background to state their origin. We don’t ask peoples of French background (of any race), or German background (of any race), or British background (of any race), or Russian background (of any race), or Polish background (of any race), or Canadian background (of any race) to state their origin. This is as much as stating that your country of background origin only matters to us if you happen to come from south of the border because it’s the only non-race option that comes with the caveat “of any race.”
Boy oh boy aren’t we just clever? Snuck that right in there, didn’t we? Hope no one notices. Hope no one puts two and two together.
Also, before anybody else goes off on a diatribe about trying to preserve our A-mur-cin culture, I’d ask you to look into your genealogies and tell me where your people came from. Because unless your 100% Native American, it sure as hell wasn’t the USofA.
We are a melting pot–and peoples who may be thought of as “lesser” for whatever reason do seem to blend into the stew eventually. When my Irish ancestors came to America, they were also looked down upon:
Our immigrant ancestors were not wanted in America. Ads for employment often were followed by “NO IRISH NEED APPLY.” They were forced to live in cellars and shanties, partly because of poverty but also because they were considered bad for the neighborhood…they were unfamiliar with plumbing and running water. These living conditions bred sickness and early death. It was estimated that 80% of all infants born to Irish immigrants in New York City died. Their brogue and dress provoked ridicule; their poverty and illiteracy provoked scorn.
The Chicago Post wrote, “The Irish fill our prisons, our poor houses…Scratch a convict or a pauper, and the chances are that you tickle the skin of an Irish Catholic. Putting them on a boat and sending them home would end crime in this country.”
Sound at all familiar?
Thank you, Editor. I was just about to bring up the past waves of anti immigrant feelings and opinions about the Irish, German, Polish and Italians from about 100 years ago.
It is an interesting re-gurgitation of the same fears, accusations and descriptions used for today’s immigrant wave (hispanic) as the previous ones (people now mostly considered safely in the “white” majority).
I grew up with the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of people who burned crosses and destroyed the gravesites of my “immigrant” family, yet I look as “white” as the rest of them. I wonder if they even remember.
I believe a lot of honest Americans(and Canadians) have also been persecuted within the last 60 years because of their Japanese heritage and the fact that they “looked different”. You’d think people would learn, but apparently not.
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Nearly four million Americans are denied the vote because of their criminal record. I say few things are more criminal
Glad Thereafter, you cherry picked the hell out of my comment. I believe I excepted criminals right after the sentence you quoted. Did you get so excited to refute something that you forgot to read the rest of the paragraph?
Criticize if you must, but you never did tell me what a social contract is. I wasn’t being flip or ignorant. I have my own thoughts on what it means, but it isn’t exactly a term you can find in Webster’s. I’d like to know what you folks throwing it around mean.
In 1921, my family’s church was burnt to the ground by a bunch of bigots because the congregation were Irish Catholics and “undesirables.” What horseshit rationale do you suppose the good God-fearing American mob used to justify the attack on their neighbors and what do you think that mattered to the women picking through the ashes?
Holy shit, I can stand people being ignorant but intellectual dishonesty is something for which I have no stomach.
I feel compelled to apologize, on behalf of my grandparents, to all contemporary immigrants. When my grandparents each individually arrived in this country, all immigration (with the shameful exception of immigration from China) was legal. There were no such people as ‘illegal immigrants’, and the only reason anyone got kept out of the country was for having tuberculosis or a visible venereal disease (or, of course, arriving from China). And then too many people like my grandparents showed up, and then people who thought like Glad Thereafter and DinTN got the vapors and recognized that it wasn’t enough to keep the Chinese out, so they passed that nasty immigration bill that said that you pretty much couldn’t immigrate unless you were from the places that people had come from before 1880, so that migrants would already talk and worship and look and live just exactly like people who thought like Glad Thereafter and DinTN, and this has been screwing up our immigration policy ever since. So, as I said, I apologize. It’s my family’s fault. And, of course, if me or my family or anyone who’s, you know, similar to me — if any of us has messed up America or had the least little bit of impact on the culture or bothered people like Glad Thereafter and DinTN, well, I apologize to you, too.
Well, any kind of visible or detectable disability became cause for keeping one out, with “disability” intersecting with racism to make it an expanding category as time progressed. Doug Bayton’s book on this should be coming out next year, but until then, a good article on it would be Doug Baynton, “Defectives in the Land: Disability and American Immigration Policy, 1882-1924” Journal of American Ethnic History (Spring 2005)
Oh, yeah, I forgot about the disability thing. Right.
Aunt B.,
I feel like I must…point out to you that everyone can read what you wrote… when you say…you and I will not find common ground, for you do not allow private property or defence against ethnocide.”and then… say “I do not consider ‘letting brown people into the country’ to be ethnocide” people can see those two statements… Perhaps you’d like to clarify, but it seems obvious to me that…you’re saying that there is some kind of pending ethnocide… for which Ginger would not allow decent people to defend themselves against.
That rather depends on Ginger’s answer: does she allow that a people have the right to protect their own community and property against the trespass of aliens?
In fact, she calls it ‘racism’, so I suspect she wouldn’t allow it – but I’d bet my house she doesn’t think the fighting Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto were ‘racist’; or those Native Americans who fought against the violent expansion of early White America; or those who today live on ‘reservations’ because they wish to enjoy an enhanced collective identity and some measure of self-rule.
Perhaps like many people Ginger only sees ‘racism’ when European and European-derived nations are wanting to protect their community and territory. I argue that we should uphold the principle of right to collective self-defence and sovereignty, or else the weakest and their interests will always lose out.
(And nothing is more racist than allowing advantages to one people but not to another)
Since we’re in a thread talking about white people’s supremacist responses to the immigration crisis.
I made it clear I do not agree with your ‘supremacist’ claims or attempts to racialize this issue.
Conde Senshun,
Women, Gays, the undocumented are under attack, and there seems to be a large number of people who wait until the momentum toward change doesn’t require their presence to push it forward.
The ‘undocumented’…
You have it arse-about-tit. It is not Americans who are attacking Mexican citizens, it is Mexicans who are attacking America and Americans – who is where?
that makes no sense.
in the context of trespass, “a people” does not fit in. trespass is a crime committed against one specific property owner. a plurality, such as “a people” or “a community”, cannot be trespassed against in any well-defined or clearly understood sense, because community property cannot be defended against intrusion like private property can. somebody who is “trespassing” against “a community” could just as easily be said to be a peaceful outsider trying to join that community.
in the context of “a people”, “their property” no longer means what “property” needs to mean before a term like “trespass” could apply. community property is not the same as private property. an entire country is the “property” of that country’s people (well, in any modern democracy, anyway), but it’s not “property” like my front yard is my property, or else how could i be said to own my front yard? so enforcing “ownership” and access rights to an entire country is not similar to fencing your front yard, and shouldn’t be described with the same words.
i’m also suspicious as to why the term “aliens” was stuck into that sentence. ask yourself what it would mean for a country to be “trespassed upon” by somebody who was not an “alien”, and how such a thing might even happen; it doesn’t seem possible, which makes me suspect there’s more fishiness in mr. thereafter’s terms here.
i’m not going to touch the nazi-bomb with a ten foot pole, though. clear-minded people already see that this ridiculous comparison simply does not apply, and wrestling with the pig would only get me muddy.
Ginger,
(It isn’t the American who favours his own people and wants to keep his own property who needs to justify himself;)
You’re right…there is no need to justify it, because there is NO justification for racism.
I responded to this comment in my reply to Aunt B.
(in fact it is those who aggress on his nation and those who assist them with fantastical slurs who are the more nazi-like.)
Right. Those who aggress on his nation…let’s add sexist to racist to the list of your follies. For someone who is so bent up about the language that those who are trying to be compassionate toward an ethnic group who is obviously having a hard row to hoe these days, you should choose your words carefully as well.
You do not respond to my comment. To respond to yours, yes, I write his, not his/her or their. I do not consider this sexist, at least no more sexist than history which Aunt B., Church Secretary and myself use in this thread (rather than neologisms like herstory, ourstory, and theirstory). Are we all three sexist? Or just me?
You are not being compassionate to an ethnic group, you are siding with illegal-aliens against your fellow-citizens of all races – I suspect out of a misguided guilt about your racial heritage and the sins of historic America.
But it was you who, in this dialogue, used the term “infected” in referring to folks who are friends of mine
No, I was hoping Canada had not been infected with this racist notion of ‘Hispanicity’ as a tool to attack White people. Remember?
You’re right. I could never find common ground with a person who could find it in their hearts to use the word “ethnocide” to make a point in this debate.
Your opposition to ethnocide needs to be grounded in firmly held principles equally applied, but I fear you are too easily persuaded by the prevailing opinion to really hold your own position.
You wonder why tyrants have so little trouble finding their ‘willing executioners’? Consider how unthinkingly you label a national identity and will to survive ‘racism’. Trotsky had to invent the word and people had to be indoctrinated to pathologize these normal human feelings. In another time and place you might have found yourself herding nationalists and other political opponents onto trains to the Gulag. Might still.
Am I being unfair? Not if you hold to your views of post 23.
Oh and by the way…being an owner of private property myself, I have yet to find an undocumented Mexican there trying to take it away from me. Are they trying to take your property away? Anybody’s? Prove it.
And as an American who owns America with her fellow citizens? Any Mexicans there?
(At least you didn’t say ‘undocumented American’)
That rather depends on Ginger’s answer: does she allow that a people have the right to protect their own community and property against the trespass of aliens?
Yes, we all have the right to protect our private property against trespassers. Personally, if an alien came upon my property, I’d invite them in so I could hear about what life on other planets is like. As for those who are in our country without the papers, I have never had one of these people try to take my land.
In fact, she calls it ‘racism’, so I suspect she wouldn’t allow it – but I’d bet my house she doesn’t think the fighting Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto were ‘racist’; or those Native Americans who fought against the violent expansion of early White America;
Keep your house, glad thereafter. You are correct that I do not think the Jews or the Native Americans were racists….they were trying to stay alive. Racist? No. Self-defense? Definitely.
or those who today live on ‘reservations’ because they wish to enjoy an enhanced collective identity and some measure of self-rule.
Live and let live.
Perhaps like many people Ginger only sees ‘racism’ when European and European-derived nations are wanting to protect their community and territory.
Wrong. I see racism as inflicting physical, emotional, or mental duress upon a race, ethnicity, religious sect, etc. I experienced racism on a personal level when I was a kid growing up in an inner city of Miami, and being picked on and beat up for being white. So, I’m pretty confident that I know what my own definition of racism is.
I argue that we should uphold the principle of right to collective self-defence and sovereignty, or else the weakest and their interests will always lose out.
(And nothing is more racist than allowing advantages to one people but not to another)
Except for Mexicans, right?
I’m busy, but I’ll touch on a few of your points:
I do not consider this sexist, at least no more sexist than history which Aunt B., Church Secretary and myself use in this thread (rather than neologisms like herstory, ourstory, and theirstory).
LOL!!! That’s rich. So, you are one of those who refers to the word history is “His Story”. ok.
You are not being compassionate to an ethnic group, you are siding with illegal-aliens against your fellow-citizens of all races – I suspect out of a misguided guilt about your racial heritage and the sins of historic America.
I have no guilt whatsoever about my racial heritage. I’m proud to be English with French, German, and Cherokee mixed in for good measure.
I have no guilt whatsoever about the sins of historic America. I wasn’t there, so there is nothing I could have done to help stop it. All I can do is speak out for the wrongs that can be prevented here and now.
I fear you are too easily persuaded by the prevailing opinion to really hold your own position.
You have no idea how hard-headed I am.
W,
(Nearly four million Americans are denied the vote because of their criminal record. I say few things are more criminal)
Glad Thereafter, you cherry picked the hell out of my comment.
On the contrary, I quoted you and continued where you left off because you raised a good point – it’s my subsequent sentence which has been ignored. Nobody will explain on what grounds their faction arrogates the common goods of ALL society and shares them with aliens.
Criticize if you must, but you never did tell me what a social contract is. I wasn’t being flip or ignorant. I have my own thoughts on what it means, but it isn’t exactly a term you can find in Webster’s. I’d like to know what you folks throwing it around mean.
The social-contract is the unwritten agreement between members of a society to behave with reciprocal responsibility in their relationships under governance of the state (see Plato or Lucretius, or – if you must – Hobbes, Locke, or Rousseau).
You’re probably familiar with Burke’s definition of society: a contract between the living, the dead and those who are yet to be born? Well, America’s Founding Fathers enshrined this decent and deeply human concern for future generations in the preamble to the Constitution:
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Ourselves and Our posterity. Ours not everybodys – and Our posterity not posterity in general. Our – that word that Aunt B. can’t write without quote marks to display her high-minded universalism.
The Founders knew that society is impossible without particular affiliations. Not to mention justice, domestic tranquility, common defense, general welfare…
Thank you for the replies Ginger and Nomen Nescio. I will read them carefully and respond later.
Ya know, Glad, when people come here they become part of the “us” and their posterity becomes part of “our” posterity. At least, when I was a student the history books told me that Washington was the “father of our country” not “the father of the country of direct descendants of people who lived here when the Constitution was adopted but not of the descendants of those who moved here since.” They didn’t tell me, “hey, nm, you need to read some other history book to take you up to the 1910s and then switch to US history.” Our posterity includes us all: all cultures, all languages, all religions, races, customs, who agree to abide here and become part of us. B uses the quotation marks to set off the very limited definitions you use, not to disavow that she is part of the whole.
As for what the founders knew: they knew that women could not own property or vote; they knew that most blacks were enslaved and equivalent to 3/5 of a human being, and that none could vote; they knew that even among white men only the rich had (or oought to have) the vote. We guide ourselves by the principles of liberty they enshrined, to be sure; but if you start arguing about who they thought “us” was you’re ruling most of your neighbors, and perhaps yourself, out of the picture.
Glad,
I’m sorry to say that, worse than being a racist, you’ve outted yourself as a complete fool.
Where to even start?
You say, “Perhaps like many people Ginger only sees ‘racism’ when European and European-derived nations are wanting to protect their community and territory.” and yet, you know, because we talked about it yesterday, that Mexico is just as European-derived a country as the U.S. is.
What you fail to appreciate is that western America wasn’t empty when the United States and Mexico agreed on a border between the two. When people from Vitoria travel to Vascones are they invading France? Likewise, how can someone whose family has been in El Paso del Norte since it was incorporated in 1659 really be said to be “invading” the U.S. when they come from Juarez to El Paso, when the distinction between the two has only been made since 1848?
Also, your complete failure to grasp basic etymology is frightening. “History” does not share a root with “his” even though they are homonyms. “His” has old English roots. “History” comes from Greek.
Also, the Native Americans did not go to war with some universal “white man,” (though, by formulating in this way, you’d seem to be conceding that Spaniards and their decendants are white). As much as there was fighting, there was also living together peacefully and intermarrying, at least until the landgrabbing started.
Anyway, as long as white Americans have liked to pretend that “American” and “white, English speaking people” have always been interchangeable, that’s never been the case. There was some serious discussion about making German the national language at the inception of the country. The whole reason the Founders declared Africans to count as 3/5ths people was because they were so numerous in the southern states as to give the South what was perceived to be an unfair number of Representatives. There were thriving Spanish-language newspapers throughout the early Republic.
The point is that we have always been a multicultural society that welcomed people who came here and were willing to work hard. There is no one authoritative and definable “American” culture (though I think it would be useful for you to try). “American” is not a race or an ethnicity; it’s a willingness to buy into the promise of America.
It could be that we cannot sustain the number of undocumented immigrants we have in the country right now, but considering that unemployment continues to be at historic lows and the economy, except for the recent unpleasantness, continues to thrive, there’s nothing to suggest that such fears are based in reality.
It could be that it’s unfair that Mexicans come here without proper documentation and without following the same rules as everyone else. But considering how screwed up our Immigration system is, it’s not surprising that it’s easier for Mexicans to sneak in than to come in legally. I’m all for immigration reform that would change that.
But I’m not going to sit here and listen to people whine about how the Mexicans shouldn’t be here because they’re not like “us,” when Mexicans have been contributing members of our society since before we were even a country.
I’m not going to capitulate to a bunch of folks who don’t even have a basic grasp of their own history when they start whining about having to live with people who are different than them.
White people have other choices in how to respond to people they perceive to be different than them other than whining and throwing temper tantrums about having to live with them. Repeatedly, throughout the history of America, at the same time that White Supremacists have been trying to establish the U.S. as some white utopia, we see over and over again white people who live and intermarry with these groups that are supposedly so savage and unlike us.
I reject your premise that white supremacists have the corner on the best response to “foreign invaders.” I, myself, like to nestle in and enjoy.
Perhaps you’d be more agreeable and easier to stomach if you tried that every once in a while.
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Removing troll mask…
Ya see, what I don’t get in all of this is why GT, who most assuredly resides (or at the very least grew up) on the other side of the pond (British spelling of defence with a ‘c’ is a dead give away), gives two bits about our immigration problems over here in the colonies.
Perhaps he (assuming GT is indeed a “he”) harbors some long held historical resentment for America’s victory against his native people.
Perhaps he’s grown weary of raging against the Pakistani and Russian immigrants that have flocked to the UK. (God forbid if those pasty white limy complexions were ever infused with melanin a little darker than porridge.)
Perhaps he can’t see the difference between an immigration problem that might inject some cultural shifts into a constantly culturally shifting country and, oh, something like the British monarchy taking over half of Ireland and outlawing an entire language. (Wanna talk about an alien invasion? Let’s talk about British hegemony on the many pre-existing cultures the UK saw fit to try and infect and/or take over. I mean, thanks for losing America to us and all, but we can take it from here, thank you.)
Perhaps GT really doesn’t have a dog in this fight, and instead, out of utter boredom, has decided to behave as a cur on his own country’s behalf.
I will return to troll state now.
Yours,
The Editor — Irish (Great-great grandfather William born in Waterford), English (my great-great grandfather was disinherited after marrying the Irish maid-servant and immigrated to America), German (my great grandfather, Papa Lang, stowed away on a boat when he was 13 and entered this country illegally by the way), and G0d@mn Dutch (don’t forget the Van Falconbergs… battle axes that we are)
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HOLY SHIT! THE IMMIGRANTS ARE INVADING MY PRIVATE PROPERTY! GET MY GUN! I’M UNDER ATTACK!!!
Oh wait…those are just my lawn guys. Go back to what you were doing…
Okay, that seriously made me about pee my pants. Dre wins the internet for the day.
Nomen Nescio,
that makes no sense…in the context of trespass, “a people” does not fit in… i’m also suspicious as to why the term “aliens” was stuck into that sentence. ask yourself what it would mean for a country to be “trespassed upon” by somebody who was not an “alien”… i’m not going to touch the nazi-bomb … ridiculous comparison.
Trespass upon property is the particular category we most commonly call a trespass, but the word means any transgression, violation, or offensive behaviour. It needn’t even pertain to physical property, a pointless question can trespass upon one’s time and patience (not that I’m saying…).
As you say, illegal aliens are certainly trespassing upon the physical property of Americans, but they also trespass against non-physical interests: civic harmony, confidence in the law, national identity and so on.
If you think I made a ridiculous comparison (and I didn’t equate different situations and eras) you’ll also think it’s ridiculous to base our objections to both single murder and genocide on the same principles – sanctity of life, the moral wrong of killing – or whatever. Or for theft – we usually object on the grounds that we feel rightful possession – whether of a ten dollar T.shirt or a ten bedroom mansion. It’s the principle we need.
In the absence of a principle which recognised their right to community and territory aggressive regimes have wiped peoples off the map, and will continue to do so. You need to have these principles up front NN, and more importantly, as I said to Ginger, you must be determined to apply them equally – whatever the social pressures to discriminate. After all, if you agree with G and do not allow Americans the right to value their own community and defend their territory – what’s stopping you from empire-building or attacking other communities?
Ginger,
(I argue that we should uphold the principle of right to collective self-defence and sovereignty, or else the weakest and their interests will always lose out. And nothing is more racist than allowing advantages to one people but not to another). Except for Mexicans, right?
Are you claiming the right to illegally enter Mexico and demand citizenship and public aid? I’m certainly not claiming that Mexicans don’t have the right to favour Mexicans in Mexico and to defend their territory – as you do for Americans. You are inconsistent, not me.
I have no guilt whatsoever about the sins of historic America. I wasn’t there, so there is nothing I could have done to help stop it. All I can do is speak out for the wrongs that can be prevented here and now.
In this discussion you are promoting wrongs.
(I do not consider this sexist, at least no more sexist than history which Aunt B., Church Secretary and myself use in this thread – rather than neologisms like herstory, ourstory, and theirstory.) LOL!!! That’s rich. So, you are one of those who refers to the word history is “His Story”. ok.
I was implying that with your keen female sensitivity YOU might be the type to use words like herstory. I know very well the root of our word history, the feminists had it more right than they knew: ἵστωρ meant a learned MAN.
(That rather depends on Ginger’s answer: does she allow that a people have the right to protect their own community and property against the trespass of aliens?) Yes, we all have the right to protect our private property against trespassers.
You mean personal property I take it?
This is the explicit repudiation of the social contract W, the rejection of America and its people. Ginger cannot delimit her national loyalty because the commitment to inclusivity over-rides particular attachments. For Ginger there can be no American nation – remember it’s racist for Americans to favour their own and want to keep their own property.
Yet when I ask about Native Americans who choose to live on reservations because they wish to enjoy an enhanced collective identity and some measure of self-rule, Ginger says ‘Live and let live’. It must be clear why I wonder if Ginger only sees ‘racism’ when European and European-derived nations are wanting to protect their community and territory, but she says that’s not the case so I accept it.
G, I said earlier that you and I might not find common ground for discussion if you would not allow for every people the fundamental rights which alone can protect national territory and defend against ethnocide. I guess our exchange is concluded.
nm (post41),
Do you believe the illegal immigrants who carried out the terror attacks on 9/11 were your fellow Americans – ‘Because they were here’?
Complaining that the Founders were wrong on other matters says nothing to whether they were right about the generational basis of society. Your comments are interesting, but they unrelated to mine.
Aunt B.,
I don’t consider that Mexico is even remotely as European-derived a nation as America. If product of European imperialism is our only test we could say almost all of Africa and Asia consists of ‘European-derived nations’.
The rest of your comments, once again, are straw-men borne of your own prejudice about what I must really think, and numerous ad-hom – you simply don’t respond to what I’ve written. At some point this just becomes offensive. I appreciate you letting me debate with the other folk here but I won’t bother responding to your post.
g.t., you’re just splitting semantical hairs trying to weasel out of having said something stupid, now. i recognize it, because i’ve spent way too much time doing the very same thing myself.
if you really had meant to tortuously abuse “trespass” to mean “any general offense”, you could have just used “offense”; it would have been simpler, clearer, and far easier to understand — far more everyday english, in fact. nobody uses “trespass” as a generic for “any offense” these days, it would sound horridly pretentious and stuck-up as well as being fatally unclear.
(you shouldn’t have used “offense” either, really, because it would have been too generic. what kind of offense did you mean? i’m thinking what you actually meant was the offense of trespass, and now you’re just unwilling to admit it makes no sense. either that, or you’re simply really bad at communicating in written english; pick your poison.)
another clue to what you’re doing is your overly creative use of ellipses. nobody could so consistently use them to excise my actual main points, while leaving in the pointless connecting language, without being on some level aware of it. i think you’re deliberately trying to avoid reading my main points, or else you would certainly know that (and why) i disagree about illegal aliens trespassing on americans’ physical property! implying that i do otherwise is intellectually dishonest of you.
(does telling the pig he’s covered in dirt count as wrestling with him? i hope not, but i suspect it’s no more likely to have any effect. oh well…)
trespass= framing tool. All the rest is pseudo-intellectual bullshit.
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Oh, now the September 11 attackers were immigrants? IIRC, most of them had entered this country legally, but none of them was an immigrant.
More to the point, to compare the impact of a bunch of (for the sake of argument) Mexican immigrants to a physical attack that resulted in widespread death and destruction is a bit problematic, don’t you think? Really, take a deep breath. Seriously and calmly, how can you compare the two? Possibly if you’d try to be specific about what you perceive the real threat to be, instead of ranting in generalities, you’d get a different response. Otherwise, I personally am tempted to call Godwin on you.
Oh, glad, bless your heart. I should have looked at your site a long time ago. It would have been much more fun imagining your great-great-great-etc. grandmothers enthusiastically throwing their legs over my great-great-great-etc. grandfathers, just because they smelled better than your folks, as you prattled on about an ethnicity’s right to exist unmolested. Perhaps you and John of Wallingford can sit around and commiserate together.
Nomen Nescio,
you quoted me: ‘a people have the right to protect their own community and property against the trespass of aliens’.
I didn’t mean just ‘any general offense’, I was quite specific – and I used trespass correctly. I do not know you are ‘trying to weasel out of having said something stupid’, if so you needn’t – I thought I had made a good natured joke to that effect – but nor do I.
If you disagree with Ginger’s claim that Americans are not entitled to favour their own people in their own country or defend their territory, your statement to that effect would best have been made to her directly. Instead you objected to my principled objection to her position, were then faced with the implications of your thinking, and came over to the dark side – you now agree with me, right? Don’t blame me for not knowing where you stand.
I deliberately quoted your hot-button terms precisely to make it clear I am responding to each important point. If you feel I have ignored or evaded a point you make please restate it and I shall comment upon it.
***************
nm,
It is for you to ‘seriously and calmly’ compare illegal immigrants and American citizens, that’s where I was nudging you…
And yes, the 9/11 attackers were illegal immigrants, every one of them lied about their real reason for being here – to fly planes into buildings – which technically makes them criminals, but 3 of them were here illegally and two had prior immigration violations.
As Michelle Malkin says:
More than half of the 48 Islamic radicals convicted or tied to recent terrorist plots in the United States over the past decade either were themselves illegal aliens or relied on illegals to get fake IDs. Illegals participated in the first attack on the World Trade Center, the Los Angeles Millennium bombing plot and the New York subway bombing conspiracy. Three of the 9/11 hijackers were here illegally; two had previous immigration violations.
Many of these operatives who were here in violation of our immigration laws were not under investigation for terrorism at the time they hatched and carried out their plots. Several, such as visa violators Mohamed Atta and Hani Hanjour, had been pulled over by police for speeding and set free.
If an NYPD cop were to stop the next Atta or Hanjour on the street today, he would be prohibited from asking about their immigration status—and prevented from turning them over to the feds for detention and deportation.
But you say they are ‘here’ so they are ‘us’. Or do you need to clarify that?
The real threat? I stated it numerous times and repeatedly asked (without success) for those making it to justify it.
The threat is to the rights of peoples to favour their own community, control its common goods in their own interest, and to defend their territory from aggressive aliens.
If those rights are not primary positions explicitly recognised and equally applied we won’t ever step off the merry-go-round of conflict, plunder, racism, and conquest, because we deny ourselves the moral and philosophical principles which alone can counter our aggressive tendency.
(Yes, essentially I’m restating human-rights, genocide, and laws of armed conflict.)
****************
A party comes takes its character from its host, and this party is getting a little too wild and personally vicious for me. If anyone wants to continue debating the issues – and if Aunt B. permits – I’m happy to continue talking, but I won’t respond to any more trash posts.
g.t. has descended into “i know you are, but what am i”. i thought B. was too rough, accusing him of being stupid; now i think i shall have to be rougher, and accuse him of being deliberately, petulantly childish.
and, see, this is the sort of thing that’s made me not want to talk to right-wingers if i can avoid it. i really hope they aren’t all like this, but i’m convinced too many are. call me an intellectual coward, but i too am bowing out.
Stupid, racist, dishonest… an incredible number of straw-men positions attributed to me. It’s not petulant to say I will no longer respond to them.
You’re making the same error based on prejudice that Church Secretary made NN, the right/left paradigm has no claim on my thinking, and this is not a right/left issue.
I do calmly and seriously compare U.S. citizens and immigrants of several legal statuses. I find that except for the out and out criminals among all groups, all are equally invested in working, prospering, and creating a common culture. Now, I will ask again for specific ways in which illegal immigration is harming American society and culture. Your refusal to answer does not make you a rational speaker assailed by wild and personally vicious attackers, but it does suggest that rational discussion isn’t why you came here. And if you once again ignore specifics (or twist them to claim that most people in this country illegally are linked to terrorism), I, too, will consider that you are what you appear to be: a troll who ought not be engaged.
Oh, glad, of course you’re going to refuse to respond. What other choice do you have? Every time you open your mouth, you reveal yourself to be outclassed by the folks you’re attempting to have a discussion with. You understand very little about actual world history, you claim not to be racist but clearly love white people best, and you seem flummoxed by folks who refuse to treat your nonsensical beliefs as if they have any validity.
At least, take the advise of the most esteemed of the Ése, father of Wecta and Wihtlaeg:
The fool who fancies he is full of wisdom, while he sits by his hearth at home, quickly finds when questioned by others that he knows nothing at all.
There’s no dishonor in knowing nothing, obviously. It’s the fancying yourself full of wisdom when you’re not that leads to problems.
Oh, B, what are you nudging him toward anyway?
You nudgers, ya kill me.
I do calmly and seriously compare U.S. citizens and immigrants of several legal statuses.
Your exact and only words on the subject were:
when people come here they become part of the “us”
and
Our posterity includes us all: all cultures, all languages, all religions, races, customs, who agree to abide here and become part of us. (confusing us with our posterity)
You will agree then that I am justified in asking if you think the UAE, Lebanese, Egyptian and Saudi terrorists of 9/11 are your fellow Americans – ‘because they were here’.
I find that except for the out and out criminals among all groups, all are equally invested in working, prospering, and creating a common culture.
I’ve pointed you in the direction of 19 who weren’t so your finding is already falsified. Aunt B. made a cogent argument about the absence of a common American culture, fostered by a tradition of multiculturalism, plurality, and language diversity which was a straw man when directed at me, but which you must answer.
Now, I will ask again for specific ways in which illegal immigration is harming American society and culture.
Inverted world alert!
If you are promoting crime, and the distribution of common godds to outsiders, the burden is upon you to explain why. This is a similar point I had to make earlier to Ginger and Aunt B. (even those who say ”this is our country not yours, AND we don’t like you either – get out!” are well within their rights. It is those arguing that Americans don’t have that right who are the aggressors and who need to justify their program.)
If you don’t answer – like Ginger and Aunt B. – it does suggest that rational discussion isn’t why you came here. And if you once again ignore specifics (or twist them to claim that I say most people in this country illegally are linked to terrorism), I will consider that you too ought not be engaged.
I suspect what is happening here is very much a product of a corrupted public culture where dissident views are imbued with taboo status and proscribed from discussion. It becomes acceptable and even compulsory to assert one’s orthodoxy by strongly distancing oneself from the morally tainted dissident. Yet what have I said?
a: Mexicans and other latin americans cause anywhere that they settle in large numbers to start resembling the corrupt, gang controlled place they lived before
b:the government cannot pay for people who are not paying it.
C: English is the common language here. Speak it. I wouldnt move to china and expect to be able to get a job without speaking chinese.
The reason we arent watching the canadian border is because canadians arent rushing across the border by the millions. It needs to be secured, but th emexican border first.
blatant side-track:
that’s a new (to me) way of spelling the name of the all-father’s kin. does that transliteration come out of any particular tradition, or is it your own style?
Just sayin…
Am I the only one waiting for GT to really answer NM’s queries? (I imagine being well into menopause before we receive a straight answer from that git.)
Am I the only one who thinks that until Minuteman learns how to write a grammatically correct and succinct sentence, that he has no business telling anyone else anything about the English language?
LOL! Minuteman just affirmed everything us fancy pants liberal elitists have been discussing these many hours.
I reiterate: Just sayin…
I believe they fall into the category of out and out criminals.
If I were doing that, your conclusion might be valid, but I’m not. So I continue to await your response.
As for Minuteman, his claim (a) is easily refuted by looking at national crime statistics, his claim (b) ignores the taxes that all US workers, including those here illegally, pay, and his claim (c) ignores the fact that almost all immigrants are in the process of learning English.
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I’m going to admit that I checked the IP address to see if Minuteman wasn’t one of you having a laugh at my expense. But no, someone who fails to show that he has a basic grasp of how to weild the English language actually had the guts to show up and complain about other folks who fail to have a basic grasp of the English language.
Better yet, and folks, please, sit down before I reveal the next little bit to you. His IP is from Colorado. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Nomen, I blatently ripped off that spelling from the Woden entry at Wikipedia. I was trying to relate to glad’s Anglo-Saxon heritage, you know, just so he could feel that his leaving wasn’t with all bad feeling. He just didn’t leave.
I, myself, call the Old Man either that or Odin, figuring that it’s a little pretentious to start faking like I know Old Norse now.
I just spelled wield wrong, didn’t I?
Ha. That cracks me up. Maybe Minuteman will want to prevent me from moving to his community now, too.
If you don’t answer – like Ginger and Aunt B. – it does suggest that rational discussion isn’t why you came here…[etc, and so on…]
Tiny Cat Pants is one of my favorite blogs because most of the participants are able to disagree in a very rational manner…and most of the time I learn about viewpoints that I had never thought about before. That’s the great thing about most all who express themselves here. Aunt B. does not mince words and she is one of the most intelligent people I have ever known. It is her prerogative to respond or to choose not to. So really…to infer that because we haven’t responded (as quickly as you wish) it indicates that we are not here for a rational discussion is absurd.
For today, however, I am way too busy with my job and my child to devote to a such an important and serious topic as racism. Perhaps tomorrow, if the thread is still active.
You gotta feel for the poor bastard who willingly dubs himself a minute-man. Most guys run from that kind of truth in advertising.
Ohhhhh…..MIN-ut man. My pronunciation bad.
Ginger,
I think you’ll agree that Aunt B. is not only intelligent, she’s sexy smart.
Agreed!
…and that doesn’t mean I always agree with her. I do respect the hell out of her, though…and those who I’ve gotten to know on this blog (who are reasonable, that is) even though many times we disagree or misunderstand. There is always something new to learn if you’re open to it.
I’m not Ginger, but I’ll second that, Editor. *grins*
Aunt B, where do you find these people? You find the most persistent and energetic trolls around. (And, I’ll admit, definitely some of the better ones as far as spelling/formatting goes, even if GL can’t seem to work a blockquote.)
I’m sorry, Editor, but you simply cannot say someone is “sexy-smart”, because one is either sexy, or, smart, and I do not find that term in my dictionary. Also, why should we all just accept this as fact? Clearly, the burden of proof is on you.
Further, why force Ginger into agreeing with both, separate descriptions of Aunt B, when she may only find her smart, say, but not particularly sexy? (as if) How is B’s appearance or intelligence level germane to this discussion, or is this yet another attempt at creating a straw-man argument? I cannot nudge you toward eventual enlightenment about this issue if you continue to throw up this kind of response. I may well be done with you.
[snork]
Oh NM, I am so snorking.
I’m snorking like a… a… a whatever the hell snorks a lot.
I’m choking on my own spit, I’m snorking so hard.
Oh Conde, how I love a good spanking.
*SNORK* cubed…
:)
nm,
I believe they fall into the category of out and out criminals.
You wouldn’t have said that on 8/11/01 – your ‘calm and serious’ analysis would have failed us. Did fail us. (Why do you think I posted that (very topical) piece by Michelle Malkin?)
If I were doing that (promoting crime, and the distribution of common goods to outsiders), your conclusion might be valid, but I’m not. So I continue to await your response.
You say that, but I feel I have to take these comments as promoting illegal immigration with its concomitant burdens, especially in context of a focused attack on my defence of those who oppose illegal immigration:
post 41: when people come here they become part of the “us”
post 59: I do calmly and seriously compare U.S. citizens and immigrants of several legal statuses. I find that except for the out and out criminals among all groups, all are equally invested in working, prospering, and creating a common culture. Now, I will ask again for specific ways in which illegal immigration is harming American society and culture.
There’s no other way to read it nm! If you claim you were intending all immigrants EXCEPT illegal immigrants there was simply no point in addressing those remarks to me.
As for Minuteman, his claim (a) is easily refuted by looking at national crime statistics, his claim (b) ignores the taxes that all US workers, including those here illegally, pay, and his claim (c) ignores the fact that almost all immigrants are in the process of learning English.
It’s of only a passing interest to me and immaterial to my arguments, but perhaps nm or minuteman will post some credible stats. Questions:
a) Are gangs and crime more of a problem in ‘Latin American’ populations in the US than among the (averaged) rest of the US population and other immigrant groups? What are the crime statistics?
b) Are you correct that some ‘Latin American’ immigrants don’t pay taxes minuteman? Or are you correct nm that ALL illegal immigrants pay taxes?
c) nm you seem to agree with minuteman’s demand that immigrants speak English, so this is just for you: If almost all immigrants are in the process of learning English what about the ones who aren’t? And is this education on the public dime or out of the pockets of the learner?
Oh, and Aunt. B’s culture thing too nm…
GT, we are waiting for your specifics. Put up or shut up.
OK, in a moment of unusual serendipity, or synchronicity, I sat down on the bus on my way to work this morning, cracked open the book of short science fiction works I had with me, and found this bit about the illusion of the unchanging society as the epigraph to the first story in the book. It seemed to fit this discussion, if we were actually discussing whether change = harm in terms of societies, and not trying to play Stump Your Opponent:
Finke makes it sound like societies behave much like primitive lifeforms. which, of course, makes perfect sense when i think about it.
in fact, it hadn’t occurred to me before that somebody might view something as unavoidable and necessary as change to be intrinsically harmful. viewing change as annoying, or even as occasionally harmful to oneself, yes — doesn’t everyone, at times? — but as always and by nature harmful to society at large, no, it just hadn’t really occurred to me that anybody could think that way.
although it would seem to explain more than a few things concerning a number of people, yes. but it’s also very, very scary. couldn’t be at all fun, having to live with such a worldview…
Well, it helps to explain why The Other is a source of such fear.
just glad i am not in the physical presence of such a pathetic self hating guilt dribbling white bitch because i would slap this cunt with one hand and shove her in the waiting arms of a blackman so she can be sodomized until she submits like a purring kitten to the lordship of the blackman
when obama becomes the new american boss with hitlery at his side the world of the self hating and guilted whites will come out of their holes and begin the 3rd phase of political correctness
this 3rd phase will consist of telling those non-guilted whites they better submit to self racial-cultural genocide, we will see domestic programs in the form of news media crusade reports reminding whitey he is a race becoming extinct and must now voluntarily shove aside his positions of rulership to prevent full scale racial civil war as the non-white population surges
just wait for obama to legalize the illegal mexicans and what that will do to the mexican population who will shake their fist in whitey’s direction just salivating for a fight
the history of the white race will disappear completely from all history texts with only round condemnation for their historical oppression and ‘racism’
already it has become hip for young white liberals to deny any racial-cultural identity as non-whites most especially blacks parade around slapping themselves into a frenzy of self agrandizment
stupid and useless guilted whitesheep when will you ever wake up?
i would wish for a population redistribution: transfer all the self hating and guilted whites into 90% black dominated cities so these stupid whites can experience for themselves the kind of hell blacks and their depraved and sick culture creates
If you’d only mentioned ‘feminazis’ I would have had Bingo.
Okay, okay. Time out. Just for a second.
You, Ajax, are going to come in here lecturing me about the disappearance of white culture in the face of an onslaught of brown people?!
You call yourself “Ajax.”
Ajax–you know, the king of Salamis out there in the Mediterranean Sea, by Turkey and very near the Middle East and, heavens forfend!, Africa?
You’re going to come in here and lecture me about what a giant cunt I am for not being devoted enough to white culture when you call yourself “Ajax”?
Please, I’m familiar with the logical leaps you folks have to take in order to assure yourselves that Adam and Eve and Jesus were white unlike Jewish folks today. But you’ve got to tell me what story it is you tell yourselves in which you believe that people from Greece used to be white but now are fair game for your racial hatred.
I mean, you do get that Snorri Sturluson is just about the only person to propose (and even then who knows how seriously) that Odin is a descendant of Priam, right? And, if you do believe that, you’re basically saying that the gods of your people are the human descendants of the Olympic gods.
Have you thought this through?
I mean, of course you haven’t.
But just a word of advice: if you’re going to go around lecturing people about white pride, you ought to present yourself as having some.
Ajax.
That’s rich.
nm, i’m seriously tempted to join you in that buzzword bingo game. my sense of humour is just about sick enough to enjoy that.
Shit, I bingoe’d at “Hitlery.”
So ya see, I read Ajax’s comment last night and was… well… too tired to respond because I’ve been spending all this time putting together 2nd Quarter spreadsheets so I was ans am a little fried…but frankly…well, let’s just say my jaw is still rolling around somewhere on the floor.
But the one thing that did stand out in my head was (and bless that slishy, gelatinous, sexy ball of goo knocking around in your brain cavity for seeing this too and having the presence of that self-same slishy, gelatinous, sexy ball of goo to point it out, Aunt B.) AJAX???!!!
Ajax???!!
I made the similar argument in my head, but was just too wiped out to do anything more than let it roll around like a pin ball. I mean, I was still looking for my jaw and all that, so…
But then this morning it dawned on me that the only cultural reference this guy has to that name is the sink scouring product. That is, he could have just as easily adopted the nom de plume of Comet or Bon Amie (which would have been wonderfully tongue and cheek and far more ironic).
And with trolls like that, well, you know the rest.
Oh yeah… and…
BINGO!
B, speaking of Snorri Sturluson and other Scandinavians of that era, did you notice that the Danes just officially apologized for having invaded Ireland? It’s right here. Pretty soon your people will have to apologize to Ajax’s people. I mean, to AJAX’s people. I’m sure he chose the nym with the classic advertising slogan in mind.
Why didn’t my link come through? The story is right here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,2149421,00.html
Well it’s about ga-dam time those Danes (with their confused princess and fattening but terribly delicious breakfast pastries) apologized to my people!
Editor, you’re supposed to hate those pastries. They’re an infection of your pure culture, imposed by force on people who would rather have waited for the potato to be discovered.
I think he meant everyone’s favorite skinhead, Mr. Clean, but AJAX was easier to spell.
Oh NM, but I doooo hate danish pastry. I hate them soooo bad.
Naughty. Naughty pastry.
Pastry is so bad it needs to be spanked.
You just put yourself across my knee you BAD…NAUGHTY…DANISH!
Wouldn’t it be better to have a blackman spank it? (Apologies if you are in fact a black man.)
I can’t help but hope that, secretly, AJAX picked his name because he wants to insinuate that he’s a white supremacist “ethnic cleanser.’
As for the Danes, I cannot tell you how much that tickles me. What a good way to improve the fortunes of both communities.
That’s what I was kind of trying to insinuate before, but now that you’ve fired me I’m sure my subtelty is dead to you.
A sidenote on the Danes. As one list I’m on is discussing today, one of history’s little ironies is that it was first folks from Norway and later folks from the Danelaw in England/Scotland who invaded Ireland. But it’s the thought that counts, one thought being that the Danes would now like to be thought of as fierce, so they’re apologizing for other peoples’ ferocities in order to claim them.
hey thanks for publishing my earlier (first) post i really did not expect it to get through the censor claws since anyone who dares to identify with their white pride is usually either derided into silence or blotted out from publication
my AJAX name was chosen for its uniquenes and catchiness and people tend to remember a name like that rather than ‘john smith’. i read some time ago about the greek mythologic warrior ajax it just seems like a cool identifier
as to my earlier posting rant my attempt was to provoke a reaction which it seemed to succeed in doing so. as a non-guilted white surrounded by an ocean of guilted whites who are conditioned to brush aside and not take seriously whites like myself and label them as ‘white supremicsts’ that label serves to blot out of existence any legitamacy the white nationalists like myself have
it is the modern day socially accepted program-think that whites must see every other non-white raced people as fully equal to themselves. but in order to foster this dellusion all of the past 2,300 years of history must either be destroyed or re-written to ration out the innumerable achievments and accomplishments white people are responsible for and give false origination to this non-white group here and that non-white group there
i think something on the order of 90% of everything that has been invented has as its origination white minds and white hands that have brought it and wrought it. but such an established fact of truth is unacceptable if we are to pretend that everyone is equal in all things
so how do the white hating multi-cult diversity fascists deal with this dilemma? i think they simply pretend in their multi-cult diversity alice in wonderland fantasy world they are busy constructing that the white race and culture does not exist
it is truly startling to see how everywhere you go you see some tribute display praising every non-white raced group. take for example the multitudes and multitudes of MLK memorials saturating this nationm city park after city park with their MLK memorial tribute, MLK street this, MLK street that, MLK building over here this, MLK building over there, etc etc, etc, i was half expecting his lordship black race pimp jesse jackson to visit the vatican and have martin luther king sainted so that he would forever be called ‘st. martin’ for generations to come
and yet what happens when white people dare to identify with their race and draw attention to it in any positive manner? my god they are dammed from every ivory tower cesspool from one end to the other
when man first landed on the moon did walter cronkite show recognition of the race of neil armstrong? did neil armstrong declare: “one small step for the whiteman one giant leap for mankind’? no whites (with the exception of the self hating and guilted ones) are secure in their race identity and have very healthy racial self esteem
but i think because of the self loathing so many black people have for themselves and the vast sense of racial inferiority they feel when they compare their race with most other races (not just whites but asians as well) they feel the compulsion to strike out in hate at whitey and have created the great white-racism myth to find a salve to give comfort for their bruised racial egos
black people for most of them (maybe 90%) need to cling to the white racism myth security blanket because it gives them the excuse to ignore personal responsibility and they have their white scapegoat pinata they can bash and vex. also through the numerous social goodies they have received through unmerited entitlement they are able to go to the head of the line before the more qualified white
what would black people do without white people to hate and blame and seek white guilt tribute from?
i know as a non-guilted whiteman i have not the slightest need to be around black people and i have even less any desire whatsoever to immerse myself in their very sick and degenerate and degrading violent prone culture
can black people say the same thing? how many blacks would willingly relocate to 3-4 states to be amongst their own race completely absent from the presence of whitey and his evil institutional racism they suffer so terribly from everyday?
i can assure you for the non white guilted population it would be a dream come true to be freed from the presence of blacks and black culture
it is only in the mind of the guilted whites who perpetuate the lie that whites are in some mythical need of having blacks around them
diversity = die-versity
diversity is perversity
diversity kills white culture
Whoa, son. Forget about everyone else for a minute and let’s just talk about white people, since that’s who you’re here to represent.
What’s this white culture of which you speak? Where did it come from? Where and when did it start? Where can we find it now?How did it manage to survive, timeless and unchanged, when it’s apparently really fragile and falls apart whenever it encounters anything that is unlike itself?
to bridgett:
my poor dear (assuming you are white) you give the appearance of being racially dead. and so as a racially dead-white it is useless and hopeless to attempt to bring you to white racial awareness. you belong to that phenomenon of vast herds and herds of dead-white-sheep who refuse to look into the mirror of racial-cultural truth and see that you belong to the white race. instead you are conditioned to hate your white race and celebrate all the non-whites and their superior cultures
what is white culture you ask? my god lady why don’t you open a history book and do a little superficial research
Anon — you’re making me laugh. I’m a historian. I am not only “doing the research” on race in America, but I’m publishing the books to boot. I have been up one side and down the other of US history and haven’t yet encountered this so-called “white culture” that Ajax is on about. That’s why I asked. If you want demonstrate what you think “white culture” is, where it came from, where it started, and how it’s managed to flourish in an unchanging state despite being overwhelmed on all sides and at all times by the forces of race suicide and degeneracy (have I got the terms right?), then have at it. Otherwise, I will persist in thinking that you are talking out your ass. Put up or shut up.
Oh, see, Bridgett, all that research you did to get your PhD, that was too in depth. If you want to understand what white culture is, you have to do a little superficial research.
Listen, white supremacists, we run this site by norms you should find vaguely familiar, which means, if you can knock off the personal attacks, and keep some semblance of frith, you’re welcome to argue your nonsense all day long.
But you’ve got to define your terms. Who is white? People of Germanic descent, obviously. Do you include the Celts? What about the people of Spain? Are Slavs white? Are you the kind of white supremacists who consider yourselves Christian or do you view that as a foreign, non-white imposition on white culture? I assume you don’t consider Mediterranean Europeans to be white, but correct me if I’m wrong.
“White” is not self-evident. Ask the Irish. A hundred years ago, no one considered them white and now days you’ll find plenty of skinhead folks of Irish descent.
You seem to have a pretty good idea of where we’re coming from, even though you don’t like it.
Help us understand where you’re coming from. Define your terms and make yourself clear.
We can’t have a good flyting otherwise, and I assume that’s what you’re here for.
——–sorry i somehow had the post published before it was finished so let me continue:
as i was saying please do yourself a favor and look for a defenition of what the word ‘culture’ means
what does culture mean to you? well in your white racedead mind culture means anything and all things that are non-white
black ethnic food, black music, black writing, black poetry etc etc. now to a deadwhite like yourself that is culture
chinese food, mexican food, esentially anything that the non-white world comes up with falls under the category of ‘culture’
so how do we categorize classical orchestra music? the origins of which are WHITE. do we say this is a part of white culture? no no white people have no culture in your mind. my white people have no race even. my white people don’t even exist. white people are invisible
this is exactly what the outcome of white race culture genocide is all about. to make the white race and their cultural heritage disappear and have them adopt the non-white world as their cultural identity
how did the white race survive you ask? lady are you so completely hopelessly terminally stupid? do you have any ability to read and have what you read digest into your mind? my god lady the question to ask is how did the non-white world survive?
if somehow the white raced people were in one unison union of a ‘one nation under the white race’ homeland, the white race would be so powerful they would have at their footstool most of the rest of the non-white world
it is to the tender mercy of the creator that he instilled the rich diversity of sub-cultures within the white raced nation family. for if by any means whites were bonded together in one white language and one white culture all of the rest of the non-white world would tremble in their presence
the white race culture is fragile and falls apart when in the presence of non-white cultures?
really now you must be reading from your little red book of white-hate they give to you when you go through your white-guilt training-indoctrination process at the university. the white race culture has flourished and prospered and because of its genius (think united states) many non-whites are welcomed into it to enjoy its blessings and peace and prosperity it provides.
no in the mind of the ‘death to the white race’ cult you belong to you are conditioned to think whites are weak and will soon become extinct because that is the goal of multiculturalism-diversity fascism: to kill and to make invisible the white race and its culture and heritage
let me give to you a research assigment my little racedead powderpuff toddler why don’t you ask yourself where things and services and products and technologies you use and enjoy and benefit from each and everyday found their origination from. start with the internet itself and see from who’s race the internet found its gestation and birth from. from who’s race the computer and all associated hardware and software came into being
but i know i am wasting my time trying to raise the dead because white race genocide is not a matter of the mind but of the spirit, and only with the way the spirit works does conversion and racial awakening find its birthing
I’d really like to chime in here, but I hate myself so much for being white that it’s really difficult to… Dammit! I’m late for my 5:30 PM self-flagellation.
““White” is not self-evident. Ask the Irish. A hundred years ago, no one considered them white and now days you’ll find plenty of skinhead folks of Irish descent.”
———————————————–
ok lets think about this a hundred years ago the words ‘racist’ and ‘racism’ did not exist. racist and racism is an integral part of the great ‘white racism’ myth that the white exterminators have originated. as to the irish not being white umm let me see my father was born in ireland in the year 1924 i wonder what he would think about such a white hating lie as this, after laughing he really would be puzzled by such a stupid thought.
what you are trying to do is make a race construct out of british and german and other leading white nations at that time and because the irish were a small people you are your ilk try to disasociate the irish were were suffering under british rule by telling them they are not white. in other words the strategem is to have the irish disown their white race under their brutal treatment occupation from the british upper hand
the larger question to ask is what is race to start with? we see when we consider humanity there are many differing identifiers which separate people from people such as language skin pigmentation varying physical characteristics. one of these skin pigmentation is one of the long historical identifiers which go back to the earliest written record. we see ancient civilizations bearing differing shades of skin pigmentation and facial characteristics along with languages
out of the skin pigmented peoples when we come to make the white race classification historians have brought into this category many peoples who bear the appearance of white skin pigmentation this would include for example the greeks, italians (mediterranian whites) the germans, danish, dutch (middle european whites) swedes, finnish, norwegian (nordic whites) etc etc etc
how in the world the irish are excluded from being categorized as white is beyond me to comprehend. if they were not considered to be white what race were they considered to belong to?
but you see the foundational stratagem of the multi-cult fascists is to divide the white race to the point to deny there is any white race or culture period.
now let me ask you this why don’t you think about africa and try to play your race game politics there and see how black people react when you suggest the black race does not exist and their is no black culture. what kind of reaction do you think you will find as you do this? why they will accuse you of black racia-cultural genocide. you will receive the same reaction if you wee to go to asia and ridicule the notion that an asian race and culture exists. my they will hate you endlessly
no you see the duty bound goal is to bring to extinction the white race and their culture and their history and their heritage
———————————————–
“You seem to have a pretty good idea of where we’re coming from, even though you don’t like it.
Help us understand where you’re coming from. Define your terms and make yourself clear.
———————————————–
yes indeed i have full understand where you people are coming from and from what agenda you are broadcasting out of.
where am i coming from? i am surprised you would ask me that question. but my answer begins with my own personal racial awakening which began to occur some 3 years ago when the hurricane katrina event occured and i became interested in racial issues afresh and began to take seriously the concept of ‘multiculturalism-diversity’ and began to see with my own eyes as i found on the internet such unbelievable hatred of the white race as i could not imagine. because i never obtained a university education i never had the opportunity to experience first hand the cult of ‘death to the white race’ as i call it multi-cultural-diversity indoctrination conditioning programs, but slowly and surely i came to realize that these social programs were not in fact some kind of sharing and intouch setting gatherings wherein all manner of diverse racial and ethnic cultural groups would gather to enjoy their diverse differences and lift each other up and welcome each other into some kind of love and mutual respect brotherly utopian ideal, to create the new society where we might be able to in the words of rodney king: ‘can’t we all just get along’
no no multiculturialism and diversity and much much deeper than that. to begin with the very words ‘multi-culturalism’ and ‘diversity’have only one application and that one application is directed toward one race and that one race is the white race. you will never and i mean never hear those words ever spoken when the majority demographic presence is represented by any non-white race such as blacks for example. in any company of say 1,000 employees which is black owned with all of the employees being black never will those words ‘multiculturalism’ and ‘diversity’ ever be spoken…ever. that goes with any and all of the rest of the non-white race world. it is only amongst the white race that whites are bombarded with these 2 mantra words to be conditioned to think they are in desperate need of being in the presence of non-whites. wherever white people are they must have the prerequisite representation of quota numbers of non=whites.
it is so bad that when young guilted whites find somewhere they are in the presence of a large crowd of whites and they see no ‘color’ they feel discomforted and uneasy
so i am coming from the idea of seeing myself with a remnant of other fellow whites inhabiting these lone islands as we await what is to come. remember this multi-cult phenomenon only goes back at most 20 years. it is not as if this ideology has been around for generations. i think its start can be traced to bush the elder’s first year in office back in 1989 when he called for a ‘kinder more gentler nation’ i believe that’s when this whole political correctness fascism can trace its origin
———————————————–“But you’ve got to define your terms. Who is white? People of Germanic descent, obviously. Do you include the Celts? What about the people of Spain? Are Slavs white? Are you the kind of white supremacists who consider yourselves Christian or do you view that as a foreign, non-white imposition on white culture? I assume you don’t consider Mediterranean Europeans to be white, but correct me if I’m wrong.”
———————————————–
ok you ask some interesting questions, are the people of spain white? yes i would say so but the question really needs to be asked amongst the spaniards and they would firstly identify with being european and then i do think most would identify with being white yes. the celts of course are very much white as are the slavic peoples (regardless of what hitler and other nazis might have thought of them) and of course the germans are as white as can be, and yes indeed the mediterranians such as italians, greeks, albanians, are white but the turkish people are not white in my view, i am not a scholar on the white race so i am kind of skirting on the outside edges here and maybe many turks outside of feeling turkish might identify with being white i am not 100% sure. but when we come to the middle east we clearly see the semitic race in view in the jewish and arab world who would never classify themselves as being white. the iranians many white nationalists do consider to belong to the white race nation family since the term ‘aryan’ i think has some iranian historicity to it.
now let me say this if we think in terms of race strictly along the color of the skin pigmentation we will find many many interesting anomalies we will find traces of whiteness for example among the ancient egyptians among the japanese of times past among the indians (nation of india) both present day as well as times past, and so on
there is a great mystery as to how race in the expression of skin pigmentation and associated phyiscial characteristics came about, due to the fact that a great deal of human history remains closed because the written record is not complete we really have no precise way of knowing how the peoples of the earth came about to form tribes and cities and nations, we for the most part have just fragmentary evidence.
to finish this post i just want to reassert my full understanding and acute awareness as to what is happening all over the white world in the universities regarding racial politics. the white race and culture must die, it must be made to disappear, it must become extinct, and whites must be made to feel invisible, the day will come when it will be made to be a hate crime if whites ever publicly identify with being white. white history is going to be destroyed, not by having white history texts burned but by having white history totally ignored. whites and their race and their culture and their histtory and their heritage are made to be the culprit of all the problems of the non-white world world-wide. all of this is happening at a slow but steady pace. when and if obama becomes president (as i fully expect that he will, with hillary at his side) we will see a massive accelerated drive to end white presence wherever it is found. obama as president will have a strange reaction from black people in the united states, they will become ever more demanding and hostile toward whites, blacks will openly celebrate themselves to a much higher and much more obnoxious and nausiating degree than now exists, all of entertainment media will become increasingly dominated by non-whites. the interesting thing is while whites continue to maintain a sizeable majority presence (something like 74% i think) one would think they are just 10% of the population at most as the obama-effect goes into action throughout society
as whites go down the non-whites will go up with ever increasing adulation and far greater attention as to their perceived importance
we may even see the day come when the white population is forced into white population re-distribution to live in non-white communities, as it becomes some kind of a social hate crime and a perpetuation of ‘white racist skin privilege’ for whites to be permitted to choose to live in white clustered communities
and of course it goes without saying slave repartions and a groveling apology will be given american blacks, when that day comes we will see the dismantling of all white representation, edifices to great whitemen like george washington, thoms jefferson, franklin, edison, ford, etc etc etc will be replaced with tributes to non-whites as they become the overshadowing presence.
in the future bio-scientists and geneticists will find the ‘race gene’ and will find a way to manipulate racial identity, whites will be injected with the ‘dead-white’ vaccine which will destroy all self racial identity, and re-eduaction camps will be set up to condition whites to be a passive slave like people
in the end i do hope an all out race war happens before whites completely die out, however i do wonder if that day will ever come…….
to editor:
you think i am joking about white self hate. i wish you would read up on texas university professor ‘robert jensen’ and what this foul and evil person has been up to
to joke about something serious is to blot it out of the mind and dismiss it into derission, and by laughing to scorn the concern is to mute it and have it dismissed out of the mind completely.
i wonder how blacks would feel if i were to mock imus’s “nappy headed ho” comment
I am saddened that B and others have decided to imply T-Fire are racists. I have said publicly that we will not tolerate racists individuals within our organization. Entering into the US without documentation and obtaining a job without proper legal status and documents is illegal. This is not about race, creed, or religion it is about breaking the law. I do not care what color a person is. The law is the law. I am not opposed to immigration completed in a legal fashion.
As it happens not only do I live in a predominately black neighborhood but my ex-wife is married to a legal immigrant.
B shame on you and others who try to assume what we think and not bother to contact us and ask. Your lack of follow up says to me that you didn’t care what we stand for you choose to try and vilify those who would disagree with you.
Let us look at it another way. You and others don’t care if nationals of other countries come here Fine So go to France, Germany, Austria, Africa, Australia, and any number of other countries to include Mexico illegally and I assure you you will be jailed for guess what BREAKING THE LAW!!
Finally let me say that if you would like to discuss the issue of illegal immigration I will discuss it but I will not engage narrow-mindedness that can only yell racists at those who disagree with you. Are there racists? YES However in the immigration debate it is those who see it as ok who want to use racism labels. Actions speak louder than words and our actions have been appropiate and issue oriented.
Fabian
Fabian, it could be that you personally don’t care about race but only want to have a level playing field for all predicated on law. Your intentions are lily-white, so’s to speak. But as you can see, you’ve got some strange bedfellows in the immigration debate and they will happily use your organization as a jumping-off point to further a broader agenda of race hatred and ethnic nationalism. That’s sad, but it’s true. With a little more self-awareness on your part, perhaps you’ll see that the allegations of racism are not entirely being fabricated by those who disagree with you. When your website refers to illegal immigrants as “an invasion force” (as you do in your 6/13/07 press release), you maybe can see how similar this is in tone and content to the ranting of Ajax, who believes that “white culture” is under attack and our nation likely to collapse from external invasion. Likewise, when you tell us that we should go to another country to do our thing…well, Ajax told us that we should go to Africa “to play our race game politics there.” It sort of starts sounding alike, you know? If people on the other side are confused about your ideas and how they differ from white supremacists, maybe it’s not all their fault.
Moreover, just saying that you’re for law doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re insulated from charges of racism. Laws are not color-blind in their creation or their enforcement, as many in this thread have been at pains to demonstrate. Just because some words get printed in the statute book does not magically purge them of their its racial animus.
to fabian story;
you sound like a right minded individual who has eyes opened to the invasion from mexico. but you must remember how singularly important the idea of race is to the left and the coloset marxists. all these people have to do is hurl the word “RACISM” AND “RACIST’ and all of those guilted whites are expected to fall to the floor and grovel for forgiveness desperate to find redemption from the race pimps and the marxist overlords as one who is desperately trying to find a balm for a deadly rash which has broken out on the surface
to race traitor bridgett:
———————————————–“Your intentions are lily-white”
———————————————–
wow how i hate that term: ‘lily white’ and all that is associated with it a searing word of hate directed toward those whites who dare to express any loyalty to their race. my what overtheboard hypocrisy when you see black afetr black, hispanic after hispanic, asian after asian, etc etc etc, any and all non-white raced groups forming their own race exclusive clubs and organizations, to racedead guilted whites such as you you applaud them all and encourage them all under the excuuse of ‘race-bonding’ but god forbid there exist a gathering as few as 2 whites together and they so much as whisper their desire to identify with their common race identity and exclude others, omg you bring out the pc gestapo and scream “RACIST’ and ‘RACISM’ until they roll over like puppies
don’t people like you just love the power-words ‘RACIST’ and ‘RACISM’ you love the feel inside your mouth as you roll your tongue forming the words and you feel such exalted power as you scream with your shrill tone at the poor weak whitesheep who you expect to cower and grovel before you.
Just keep in mind the longer we address this so called race issue the longer we are kept from the real issue “Breaking of our laws” Just a note we go door to door and talk to people and we know where the middle class middle road is so to speak and most people are not buying the leftist talking points
As far as the “invasion force” it is true that it is an invasion and it is color-blind just so happens that the southern border is currently highlighted and 86% of all illegal aliens in this country are of south or central american descent. This by no means says we are singling out a race but calling it as it is. Groups such as La Razza (translated to “the race”) encourages aliens of hispanic (by the way hispanic is not a race) descention to take up arms (weapons”) against american citizens. So forgive me if I do not feel sympathy for your claims.
Hail to the bloggers, hail to the bloggeresses, Hail to Aunt B, Hail to you all, all but one, You, AJAX, on that bench.
Neither sense nor answers have you to give, For you lack both, Ajax, Of all who sit here, commentors and bloggers, The most backward in battle, The shyest when facts are offered.
Boldly you speak, less boldly you act, Ajax, the blog-ornament: If you are angry, come out and fight, A hero should feel no fear.
… and so on and so forth.
Oh, magansenna, how glad I am to see you back in these halls. If you check out the other threads, you’ll see that AJAX has the honor of being the first and only person I’ve ever banned.
I’m not sure how I feel about that, actually. Just another indication, I guess, of how Tiny Cat Pants is growing up.
Fabian, my apologies for not getting back to you sooner. I was a little distracted by AJAX. I didn’t contact you because I have two eyes and can read your site.
First, I want to clarify that I don’t think your site is racist because you believe yourself to be better than people of other races (thus implying that I belive “Hispanic” is a race). I believe your site is racist because you frame the immigration debate as being about a perceived threat to white culture.
I have no doubt that you find a lot of white people are sympathetic to your cause. These are incredibly turbulent times and money is tight and folks are looking for someone to blame.
My objection to your tactics is that you’re focusing your energy on blaming people with no power–people who come to this country illegally and focusing on removing them.
There are just over three hundred million people in this country. Even if estimates of the number of illegal immigrants as high as thirty million are right and even if we could remove all thirty million of them, magically, tomorrow, there would still be just under three hundred million people in this country.
Pardon me for not seeing how that’s going to really free up jobs for Americans or drastically reduce crime or whatever it is you ultimately think it’s going to do.
Focusing on the powerless is a bully move. When it’s motivated by a fear of a threat to white people, it’s racist. How do I tell that it’s motivated by a fear of a threat to white people? I look at the kinds of language you use on your site and your friends use on their sites.
Hispanics who come here to work are not moving our jobs overseas. Hispanics who come here to work are not playing one state against another in order to get enormous tax cuts to move their businesses. Hispanics who come here to work are not taxing poor people in order to fund tax cuts for their buddies.
You can blame powerless people for your problems. You can even get other folks to go along with it. That doesn’t make it right.
And you’re being played for a fool. Don’t you think that people in power love it that you think the problem is just all these damn Mexicans?
You think Stacey Campfield came out there because he gives two shits about how many illegal immigrants there are in the state. They’re illegal. They don’t vote for him. He came to talk to you because this is a rallying point he can get a bunch of folks around, he can then propose some more ill-thought-out, probably unconstitutional legislation that never gets out of committee, and y’all feel like your champion is trying and he gets your votes. And the real problems remain unsolved.
Congratulations.
Hey, Fabian, it’s La Raza, moron.
Fabian, I know you have unshakeable belief that your group is not a racist organization, but let me just point something out. White supremacists read what you write and deduce that you are a racist; they applaud you as a right-thinking ally in promoting white nationalism. Lefties like me read what you write and deduce that you are a racist because you use paranoid apocalyptic rhetoric to describe a soon-to-be fatal attack on white culture and white national institutions by “illegals” and because you admit you don’t care about Irish or Israelis or Russians or what all, only people from Mexico and Central American countries. Now mind you, Ajax and me don’t agree about anything else. Why is it that we can agree on you?
While we’re being picky, “descention” is not a word and his punctuation is so bad as to make one’s brain cramp. I am more bothered by the mediocrity of the content, though. If I was an MTSU administrator, I’d consider asking for Fabian’s scholarship money back.
Don’t be modest, Mack. We know that you’re a member not just of La Raza, but more specifically of La raza cósmica, the last hope of the world.
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Hello
Very interesting information! Thanks!
G’night
I usually ignore idiots (as most have proven to be in here) but I feel compelled to say that first I have never went to MTSU so your google search was incorrect as are most of you facts. As far as Stacey goes – He came and spoke about an issue I wanted him to and thanks to him.
For the rest of the garbage in here I was well aware that close minded party toting liberals would have fun with this and they did.
In the Future you are more than welcome to find one of your fellow idiots and we will have a forum and discuss illegal immigration. I will show up anywhere anytime and as far as only whites in this cause well WRONG AGAIN we have hispanics, blacks, and a plethora of others in our group.
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