50 thoughts on “Really. Really?”

  2. I thought they were trying to too cleverly conflate Obama with Uncle Sam. And the result is why one must be careful when being too clever.

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  5. So, the nieces and nephews of black men are racists?

    If I may introduce some logic here, I’d like to ask a question.

    Did this twitter insinuate the term Uncle as a derogatory, racially loaded statement or was it, like you’ve pointed out, probably a reference to Uncle Sam (or some other sort of paternal position)?

    If A – then by all means, call them racists.
    If B – there is no racism involved, regardless of how you or anyone else ‘might’ construe it.

    Intent is all that matters. If you can change the intent of other people’s words, then speaking is impossible. I could say that the term Aunt B is a racially motivated and hateful slur against handicapped Ukrainians if I’m allowed to redefine your words.

    Poor choice of words? If B, then no. That’s a problem with our society these days, too many people fan the flames of racism or offense when no offense was offered. It’d be nice to be able to speak freely and not have others assign their meanings to your words then punish you for it.

  7. Hi, Rob. As I’m currently arguing with Say Uncle, you can’t position yourself as the party mindful of history, as the Republicans do when they talk about tradition and traditional values, and pretend, when it suits you that words don’t have history.

    They could have gotten the same point across by calling him, say, “Big Obama” (like big government or big business). But instead, they reach for “Uncle Obama.”

    And I believe they were making some “Uncle Sam” reach, but the thing is that the TNGOP has no credibility when it claims their actions aren’t racist. They love to use all kinds of racially loaded imagery and terminology and then play stupid.

  8. “And I believe they were making some “Uncle Sam” reach, but the thing is that the TNGOP has no credibility when it claims their actions aren’t racist. They love to use all kinds of racially loaded imagery and terminology and then play stupid.”

    No, you just like to believe that is what they do so you can put forward your argument.

    But if you believe this to be racist, where do you stand on Sotomayor thinking the life experience of a Latina woman is more qualifiying in reaching decisions than the life experience of a white man?

  9. Logic dictates then that you say “They meant it to be racist” or “They didn’t mean it be racist and therefor it isn’t”.

    You can’t say “They didn’t mean it to be racist, but I see it as racist anyway”.

    Besides, the term ‘racist’ has been thrown around so much it doesn’t have any meaning any more. If you’re honestly in the mindset that the GOP is simply against someone because of their skin color, then there’s not a lot of hope for a meaningful discussion. I’m sure there are people still in politics that believe that (you know, senators who were formally KKK wizards), and there are idiots who believe that being a Latino Woman grants her much better insight than a white man, but I still don’t believe the Democrats are racists.

  10. What specific piece of legal reasoning or decision that she’s reached on the bench or opinion that she’s issued as a judge are you objecting to? I assume that you’re just vomiting talking points you heard on wingnut radio. However, if you have a substantive objection, give me an example of a case where she’s reached a conclusion with which you don’t agree and the legal reasoning you’ve used to arrive at a different conclusion and then we can examine how she actually reasons as a jurist.

  11. A striking opinion this past June by highly regarded Second Circuit judge (and Clinton appointee) José Cabranes exposes some remarkable and disturbing shenanigans by Sotomayor. Cabranes’s opinion, joined by five of his colleagues (including Chief Judge Jacobs), dissented from his court’s narrow 7-6 denial of en banc rehearing in Ricci v. DeStefano. (Cabranes’s opinion begins on the ninth page of this Second Circuit order.)

    Read the whole thing here
    http://bench.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NzI4ODU1MjIxMThiNGQzODUwYTFlYzNlNWNlOWMzOTc=

  12. Y’all want to leap to the defense of the TNGOP, that’s your business. I’d just think you’d want to look at the long history of what they do and how they then stand around all “What?” afterward.

    I believe, based on how your are trying to conflate my rolling my eyes at the TNGOP, with some broad attack on Republicans everywhere that you’re just having this fight to have this fight (as also evidenced by your pulling out the Sotomayor thing just because that’s also what everyone on the internet is fighting about).

    I’m honestly not interested in fighting for the sake of fighting.

    I’m interested in laughing at the TNGOP for continuing to make asses of themselves. But now that I’m aware that we’re not allowed to consider a person’s past behavior, I will wander aimlessly through the state wondering at how those fine folks at the TNGOP have gotten such a bad rap.

    And then I will blame the Latinos.

  13. Just considering persons’ current behavior, why do trolls always try to change the subject under discussion?

  14. Yes, it is utterly racist to say “Uncle Obama” (what!?) yet perfectly OK to call Clarence Thomas and Michael Steele “Uncle Toms” and Condaleeza Rice a “House nigger”. You see, it isn’t about the color of their skin, it is all about their political party. If conservative, then fair game for all sorts of vicious attacks. (See also, attacks on appearance of conservative females – i.e., Sarah Palin, Carrie Prejean, Ann Coulter, etc.)

    Sorry, libs, but I see tons more genuine racism, sexism and all sorts of bigotry and intolerance coming from the left than the right could ever dream up.

  15. So you’re citing a conservative Latino’s dissenting opinion from a centrist Latina’s opinion as a means of suggesting that ethnicity is some predictor of wacky judicial interpretation? Not getting where you’re coming from with that.

  16. LissaKay, try to find an example of Aunt B calling Thomas or Steele or Rice any of those things. Try to find her attacking conservative women for their looks. Really, try it. You will fail.

  18. LisaKay, I’m still waiting for the TNGOP examples of past behavior. You guys claim it is rampant, produce something.

  19. LissaKay: try to find her supporting that use either. I doubt you’ll find it. Beyond that, she’s not saying the statement was racist or the person was racist, she’s saying that it’s sorta funny to watch the GOP try to appeal to black people while tripping all over itself using language that will at least raise eyebrows.

    That’s the point… it’s NOT that the statement is beyond the pale or so awful, rather that coming from a party with a history of doing things that people of color in general have objected too, it’s not exactly a wise way to phrase the impression you were trying to give.

    I find it interesting that the only mention of racism is coming from people who are objecting to it being called racism…

  20. Jesus Christ. THANK YOU, Polerin. Exactly. I swear, I could make a post where I said, point blank, the TNGOP is full of racists out to personally harm ever black person in the state and they use language like “Uncle” as a coded way to let their klan member followers know that now is the time to rise up in the streets, and I’d get Exador commenting about what a typical liberal I am and that’s it.

    But I post making fun of the TNGOP’s ongoing efforts to trip over their own feet and there’s some kind of right-wing meltdown.

    LissaKay, if you’re not talking to me, don’t show up here hollering at me about what liberals do. Because I will assume you’re addressing me. Since, you know, it is my blog.

  21. Robb Allen: “If you can change the intent of other people’s words, then speaking is impossible.”

    But that is what has happened to ANYTHING a white person says. That is why only whites can be racist, don’t you know?

    If everything we say is under the spotlight then we cannot say anything and that is where we find ourselves in our own country these days. I have been told this is true by minorities. I have been told that anything I say as a white man has NO BEARING ON THE CONVERSATION, EVER, in public or private.

    How’s them apples?

  22. Are you sure it was because you were speaking as a white man and not as the kind of asshole who just shows up places he’s unfamiliar with in front of people he doesn’t know and starts spouting off about how unfair life is to him?

    I mean, seriously. If you want to bitch about how unfair life is to you, start your own blog.

  23. I say we go back to the day when words had enough meaning that if i felt you were calling me ANY kind of name, I could demand satisfaction with a duel.

    See how smart you are then.

  24. Sorry, my bad. Here I thought that a blog with comments enabled meant that the owner welcomed discussion on the topics they post about.

    But may I ask this? You said this post was about the TNGOP and their use of the “Uncle Obama” … because it goes against their intent to reach out to the black community while they use what some see as provocative language that some might interpret as being racist. You mock them for this, deservedly or not.

    So, then I bring up the fact that the very overt racist, sexist and bigoted attacks coming from the left far outweigh anything that has been attributed to the right. You take that as a personal affront, even though I directed my statement towards the left in general. OK, so you have never made a bigoted statement towards anyone yourself. I will accept that at your word.

    I would be very interested though, in seeing where you have mocked or reacted in scorn those who have made such statements against conservatives. How did you react to feminist Gloria Feldt when she attacked Carrie Prejean, saying, “Instead of breast implants, she could use a heart transplant.” What did you have to say about the baseless, hateful and vicious attacks on Sarah Palin and her family? Surely you jumped all over Ted Rall for his depiction of Condoleeza Rice as a “house nigga” … could you link us up to those posts? That would be awesome if you could, thanks!

  25. Let’s just disavow any bad thing that anyone has said about anyone ever! It’s your civic duty! Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

  26. Or perhaps, LissaKay, you could use the handy blogsearch feature in the right sidebar. B is very good about doing exactly what you are demanding she do. I say this as a conservative person who also manages to be her friend without my skin blackening and falling off.

  27. Coble … yes, I could have. I am also quite handy with the Googles. However, this evening finds me with a heavily loaded plateful of household duties, needs of children and unfinished work business, and short on time for such research. I was hoping that Aunt B would know exactly where such posts would be and could quickly point us in the right direction.

    I did scroll down the length of the front page though, and I failed to note any mention of Sotomayor’s incredibly racist statement regarding her qualifications to serve on the SCOTUS. Maybe Aunt B just hasn’t had a chance to write up a scathing indictment of that statement, and why such a racist person should never, ever hold a city court position, much less sit on the highest court in the land.

    I’ll check back.

  28. Good grief, Aunt B. Did you forget to placate a dead relative or something? Or maybe it’s time to get out the virtual smudge sticks and give this place a good cleaning. You seem to have more than your usual share of, ah, trolls Concerned Newcomers Who Happen To Violently Disagree With You.

    If the sage and dead-people placation doesn’t work, d’you think you could at least get Ex and Sarcastro to give them some pointers on disagreeing with style? I prefer my arguments spirited and well-executed.

  29. “Violently disagree” … now THAT is funny!

    Troll = someone with a differing opinion (liberal newspeak for “I can’t come up with a factual argument against what you said”)

    This is just sad. Crap like this “Uncle Obama” thing gets tossed out there with unspoken faux outrage over the racism of it, yet when called on it – Oh, I didn’t mean it was racist! How can you think such a thing!

    Liberals really don’t do righteous indignation very well, not even as a parody. But it is amusing when they screech because someone uses the same kind of “argument” right back on them that they just tried to use.

    This would be hilarious if it weren’t so utterly pathetic.

    Hey, drop me a line when that “Sotomayor is a racist” post is up, will you? No? Maybe Say Uncle will link to it too …

  30. Did I miss a memo where suddenly we’re all required to demonstrate that our every thought has been correct forever and ever amen, just to make a point?

    I mean, sure, history and context are important and all (see also: my entire academic career), but a statement of the sort: “occurrences A, B, and C sure look a lot like a pattern to me” stands pretty well on its own. Interrogating someone’s entire blogging history* may provide some interesting information (especially if you can say something like “gee, you didn’t think that last week when you were arguing that A was a totally different thing”), but is orthogonal to the debate about whether occurrences A, B, and C actually form a pattern of the sort noted.

    * Or, at least, asking others to interrogate it in one’s stead, since one apparently can’t be arsed to do it oneself.

  31. I’m half tempted to go back to the trolling thing, particularly the bit where an observation about the quality of one’s behavior (barging in and yelling without getting a good sense of the community, pulling standard derailing and minimizing tactics, telling someone what to talk about in their own living room) is somehow conflated with commentary on the factual content of one’s arguments, but… a) it’s 3:30 am and I should get some sleep, and b) experience indicates that telling people they’re behaving badly when they’re in the middle of said bad behavior generally leads to more defensive yelling than anything else.

    Ah well.

    I’m still waiting for Exador and Sarcastro to show up and show everyone how we do things ’round these parts. (Sorry Say Uncle; I know you know all this, but y’can’t demonstrate how to properly needle Aunt B when you’re in the main body of the crosstalk. It’s too much for one person to handle!) A proper row is one where you can’t tell whether you’re red in the face from laughing so hard or fuming, and you wanna go out for beer afterward just for fun.

  32. Sorry. We were busy over at the other pointless thread.

    Both of which should serve as a reminder of the dictum: That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

  33. Okay, I’m sorry, this has turned funny for me, now. And myabe it’s just because I like bossy women, but there’s something so delightfully fucked up about showing up at a place you don’t hang out, making a total ass of yourself, and then, instead of just being all “Oh, ha, yeah, I did fly off the handle, but let’s not lose sight of …” demanding that you get to boss the person whose blog it is into writing what you want them to write about.

    The huevos that takes are enormous.

    So, let me just state for the record, LissaKay–never. Never, ever, ever. Even if Sotomayor leads a Hispanic uprising and takes all your guns away and is so racist towards white men that white mammas start coaching their children to claim that they’re albino, I will never speak a word against her. So, stop pissing and moaning about it.

  34. Oh, Magni, but LissaKay is such a funny troll! She has time to come over to a perfectly strange (to her) blog and excoriate the blogger and commenters; she has time to fling around all sorts of generalized accusations that have nothing at all to do with the topic at hand; she has time to memorize all the latest Republican talking points about Sotomayor; but she doesn’t have time to use the search function because she has a life. This is first-rate humor being given us here.

  37. I’m afraid she’s the sort that no one would make up. (Her name hyperlinks to her website…)

  38. I’m not going to look unless you can assure me that she’s made a career out of going around the internet angrily handing out writing assignments. I would read a blog like that.

  41. “Orthogonal”! That just made my whole day.

    What I can’t figure out is this: if ‘Uncle’ is supposed to refer only to ‘Uncle Sam,’ and if the same people throwing that out are supposedly such great USA-loving types, then why is “Uncle Obama” supposed to connote something negative in the usage at issue? Are we now rejecting Uncle Sam as an overall positive image? Who can keep up?! If all were arguing is connotation, then I really need to know how to square this circle. Please, enlighten me.

  43. Emmy Lou, good question. I guess the answer is that Obama just taints whatever he touches.

    Mag, clearly someone just needs to give you a job running around the internet saying hilarious and clever things.

  45. Nah, more of your bitter-knitter, Dollar General version of Michelle Malkin.

    Wow, way to combine limousine liberal elitist condescension with leftist hatefest.

    Well played.

  47. A visit to LissaKays blog at someone elses suggestion upthread led me to read most of a long thing about The Gays and not having anything against The Gays but then calling a bunch of everyone sinners for basically not seeing things her way on The Gays. There was much Bible quoting and a whole paragraph about what sins are the Greatest Hits Of The Hellbound. And something about how marriage is holy and sacred.

    The post right below it talks about her divorce.

    It seems that she wishes to believe whatever version of facts is most convenient at the moment. I see this trait in people of all political persuasions so I can’t call it a conservative thing. I CAN call it a boring thing.

  49. Wow, way to combine limousine liberal elitist condescension with leftist hatefest.

    Well played.

    I shop at Dollar General. And Fred’s. Same product for less, without “production value.”

    I knit.

    So does my wife. Point?

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